Another Garand question

DougT · 05-28-2005, 03:24 PM

Hello Everyone,

I have another Garand question: Today when I picked up my new Springfield Armory M-1 Garand (sweet!), I got into a conversation with the guy at the counter (who seemed to know what he was talking about). I was asking about the standard "ball ammo" loading, and he told me that the black tip armor piercing ammo was pretty much standard issue to most troops during WW II. I had never heard this, but like I said this gentleman seemed to know his stuff. Any comments from our collection of experts?

DougT

Ron Smith · 05-28-2005, 10:15 PM

Doug,
Not an expert, but I don't believe that all standard issue ammo was AP. The majority was standard 152 Gr FMJ. At some point AP may have been issued in addition to standard FMJ. It would have been too expensive to issue all AP ammo. I think that AP was used more in the Browning .30 LMG than for infantry rifles. I have seen cases of Frankfort arsenal FMJ '06 ammo over the years. I have never seen a full case of AP however.

Ron

Doug G. · 05-28-2005, 10:35 PM

Ron, don't know about WWII but here is a unopened case of Korean vintage M2 AP. As you will notice it is bandoleers for the M1 Garand. Bought it at an auction for $15!

Ron Smith · 05-28-2005, 11:54 PM

Hi Doug,
That is neat, but I still don't think that AP was standard issue. I could be wrong. My point was that if AP was standard issue, why was'nt more of it than FMJ found, sold as surplus?

I would believe that it was issued more often in Korea. Because the the quilted Chinese silk coats that the Korean Army used were very difficult to penetrate. The Mongolians wore silk because it was nearly impossible to pierce with an arrow, sword or spear if layered properly.

I can't believe that AP was generaly used as "blanket issue" to every G.I. with an M-1 during WWII. The core of an AP round is very high quality hardened steel. They make the best center punch that you can find. They never get blunted or dull. It would seem that it would be very expensive to use it as a general issue round for soft targets.

Ron

DougT · 05-29-2005, 12:59 AM

Ron,

Thanks for the information. It makes sense that the more expensive AP ammo would almost certainly not be standard issue to the regular troops, but I guess stranger things than that happen in the military. I'll be very interested in hearing what the rest of our experts have to say on this.

DougT

policeluger · 05-29-2005, 08:06 AM

After over 30 years of shooting on the Navy shooting team, while AP was not the standard issue battle ammo for M1's, so much of it was and is still available, and there was no harm to the weapon in using it, it just became acceptable use. We still have lots of it here in inventory, personally having gone to the M1A, there is little cause for my to use it....and I do love the .308/M1A

Ron Smith · 05-29-2005, 09:07 AM

Howard,
I share your love for the M-1A, although mine went away to pay bills back in our skinny years. And has yet to be replaced.

When I was assigned to Riverboats in Vietnam, I was issued an early M-16, which I dispised. Absolutely worthless for river interdictions on bumboats and junks.
I had the opportunity to run across an unattended M-14 at an ARVN base. So I "upgraded" my unknown allie's weaponry my making him a trade. I never regretted it. And although he never thanked me, I'm sure he must have been happy with the deal.

At least he never complained.

Ron

policeluger · 05-29-2005, 10:44 AM

The one bad thing about retirement, I miss the open ammo bunker the 14's/16's and most of all the Uzi's we did eveything we could to burn out and it never missed a beat over years of firing....yes we had/have Uzi's here but no MP-5's.....plus all the handgun stuff...oh well.

05-28-2005, 03:24 PM	#1
DougT User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 171 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Another Garand question Hello Everyone, I have another Garand question: Today when I picked up my new Springfield Armory M-1 Garand (sweet!), I got into a conversation with the guy at the counter (who seemed to know what he was talking about). I was asking about the standard "ball ammo" loading, and he told me that the black tip armor piercing ammo was pretty much standard issue to most troops during WW II. I had never heard this, but like I said this gentleman seemed to know his stuff. Any comments from our collection of experts? DougT

05-28-2005, 10:15 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Doug, Not an expert, but I don't believe that all standard issue ammo was AP. The majority was standard 152 Gr FMJ. At some point AP may have been issued in addition to standard FMJ. It would have been too expensive to issue all AP ammo. I think that AP was used more in the Browning .30 LMG than for infantry rifles. I have seen cases of Frankfort arsenal FMJ '06 ammo over the years. I have never seen a full case of AP however. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-28-2005, 11:54 PM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Doug, That is neat, but I still don't think that AP was standard issue. I could be wrong. My point was that if AP was standard issue, why was'nt more of it than FMJ found, sold as surplus? I would believe that it was issued more often in Korea. Because the the quilted Chinese silk coats that the Korean Army used were very difficult to penetrate. The Mongolians wore silk because it was nearly impossible to pierce with an arrow, sword or spear if layered properly. I can't believe that AP was generaly used as "blanket issue" to every G.I. with an M-1 during WWII. The core of an AP round is very high quality hardened steel. They make the best center punch that you can find. They never get blunted or dull. It would seem that it would be very expensive to use it as a general issue round for soft targets. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-29-2005, 09:07 AM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Howard, I share your love for the M-1A, although mine went away to pay bills back in our skinny years. And has yet to be replaced. When I was assigned to Riverboats in Vietnam, I was issued an early M-16, which I dispised. Absolutely worthless for river interdictions on bumboats and junks. I had the opportunity to run across an unattended M-14 at an ARVN base. So I "upgraded" my unknown allie's weaponry my making him a trade. I never regretted it. And although he never thanked me, I'm sure he must have been happy with the deal. At least he never complained. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-28-2005, 10:35 PM	#3
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Ron, don't know about WWII but here is a unopened case of Korean vintage M2 AP. As you will notice it is bandoleers for the M1 Garand. Bought it at an auction for $15!

05-29-2005, 12:59 AM	#5
DougT User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 171 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, Thanks for the information. It makes sense that the more expensive AP ammo would almost certainly not be standard issue to the regular troops, but I guess stranger things than that happen in the military. I'll be very interested in hearing what the rest of our experts have to say on this. DougT

05-29-2005, 08:06 AM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	After over 30 years of shooting on the Navy shooting team, while AP was not the standard issue battle ammo for M1's, so much of it was and is still available, and there was no harm to the weapon in using it, it just became acceptable use. We still have lots of it here in inventory, personally having gone to the M1A, there is little cause for my to use it....and I do love the .308/M1A

05-29-2005, 10:44 AM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	The one bad thing about retirement, I miss the open ammo bunker the 14's/16's and most of all the Uzi's we did eveything we could to burn out and it never missed a beat over years of firing....yes we had/have Uzi's here but no MP-5's.....plus all the handgun stuff...oh well.