Need help w/ammo

[P. J. Heck]

Went out w/Krieghoff commercial and 1938 S/42. Krieg would not fire Egyptian sub gun ammo at all making well defined ghost on all primers (7), fired Norince ammo everytime but wouldnt cycle. Single round would not let toggle catch hold open. S/42 gun fired Egyptian sporadically, 4 of 7. Fired Norinco w/same result as Krieg., many malfunctions from failure to cleanly eject empty to not cycling far enough to strip next round causing stove pipe jam. Also tried current mfg Win military stuff. Worse than Norinco. I had some cupro nickle jacketed WW 2 Chech that really worked well, very hot, intended for MP 40 and Lugers interchange probably. No malfunctions what so ever. Unfortunately this 'armor piercing' round has been listed as 'non importable as is cop killer', and I am out of it. Has anyone found a source/mfgr of ammo hot ehough for the Luger with out having to reload. I am reloading 8 different calibers now and am reluctant to add another for a gun I dont shoot that often?????

[John D.]

Originally posted by P. J. Heck
Went out w/Krieghoff commercial....

:icon501:

OK - I think I got over it..

Hey P.J...!!!

What has worked for me is a 124 or 125 FMJ bullet going just shy of 1200 FPS. However - work up slowly to that load - as you are looking for consistient feeding and full cycles, rather then loading too hot and bashing the Luger. Like you - I've had a difficult time finding commercial ammo that will feed/fire reliably - so I resorted to loading my own. However - the commercial stuff does feed/fire just fine in my Hi-Powers and 1911 9mms - but won't cycle the shooter Lugers I have..??

Best to you,

John D.

[Vlim]

Hi,

Have been shooting commercial S&B 124 grain 9mm in my S/42, VoPo and Dutch 1906 for a couple of years now.

The VoPo behaves a lot like you describe, but it's kinda crappy in the spring departement. The S/42 is completely overhauled and is very, very reliable. The Dutch is pretty reliable as well.

Any decent P08 in a good condition should shoot Winchester wallmart 9mm or S&B 124gr 9mm without problems. Failure to do so indicates pistol (or owner) problems. Try new magazines as well (the MecGars).

[P. J. Heck]

I notice S & B ammo advertised but cant recall using any of it. I always buy in 1000 rnd bulks because of mg use. And usually bargain priced stuff at that which probably means at the bottom of the quality scale. The Egyptian ammo wont even work in their own Port Said (Sweedish Gustav M-50) there isnt enough power to shove the bolt back to catch the sear. Every magazine full is a runaway gun..... (I dont always shoot a Krieghoff commercial, I had a special purpose in that exercise.......... shouldnt have hurt it anyway) I have been informed that the WW 1 and I suppose the commercial Lugers from that era had a 19 coil recoil spring, the 30 cal guns had a 17 coil spring and the WW 2 guns, sharing ammo w/sub guns (MP 40) used a 20 coil spring. I have a shooter grade 1936 and a shooter grade 1915. I will make a run on my existing ammo with both guns at the same time and see what I get. I have never had any luck w/Win ammo whether military or Wall Mart in Lugers. I have several magazine and have interchanged them with moderate success. I have found that I can usually rework the feed opening on the mags to get them to feed, when I have good enough ammo. .......Recent shooter trip w/volunteer ammo buyers all bought Win at Wall Mart and ran it through several of my sub guns (not the Gustav) and it really went well. I just remembered, I tried a 1917 Navy I have just gotten, and same situation existed. Will take reloading suggestion under consideration as shooting Lugers doesnt happen often...............

[unspellable]

Be sure you are not barking up the wrong tree here. Contrary to the urban legend, the Luger does not require "hot" loads. What it does require is an adequate OAL, a lot of ammo related reliability problems are caused by the OAL being too short.

Another question is what do you have for a recoil spring? I've opend up six Lugers and found six different recoil springs, none of them original. Thor tells me he's seen the same thing. I think that in the past, due to the urban legend about the "hot" ammo, a lot of people have been dinking around with the recoil springs in an attempt to get the pistol to work with ordinary loads. The Luger will not work right if the recoil spring is wrong.

[P. J. Heck]

I looked at the recoils springs in the Krieg and the 1938, I did not in the Navies. The ones I did look at seem to have that 'original' look to them and best I can tell have 20 coils. I have a replacment recoil spring here and it just plain looks different and is 22 1/2 coil long, already kinked in the middle from being too long? Has anyone gotten one offered by Numrich? I have had questionable luck w/their springs being what the ad implies, ie; I ordered springs for a rifle, they were hand cut from spring stock. When I sent them back as non original, they supplied new originals rather than refund. Go figure........... Now, with the recoil spring discussion, I am having the same problem w/ WW 1 and WW 2 guns w/the ammo I have tried. Obviously the Egyptian is too short for these guns. It works fine in sub guns although a bit lazy. And I have 10,000 rnd to use up somewhere. I am most disappointed that the new military 9mm from Olin (Win.) is the next poorest performer. I have 2500 rnds of it. I have 22 rnds of the gray box Norinco that seems to work on a just barely basis and 2 boxes of the Norinco red box which is again iffy. I have found a set of 9mm dies here that are already in a Lyman True Line Jr press w/a powder dispenser. I only need to get some 124 gr bullets which Wally World may have............

[pipeman45]

I've tried the Egyption in some other guns,and I would never use it in my Luger. It was nasty stuff. I don't think it was too short,but it could be. It has some of the hardest primers I've ever seen. It could take up to 3 hammer strikes to fire and when it did the barrel looked like a sewer pipe from all the carbon and unburnt powder.

[P. J. Heck]

I was trying every 9 mm I had here in an attempt to establish something that would work. I had relegated it to back burner status some time ago. Use in subs only.........

[Roadkill]

I've tried for about three years to get a consistent load for my Thor restored 1918 Erfurt, since the gun is in the same shape it was when assembled I had the safety of knowing it isn't the gun. I took it out with an armload of other guns shooting yesterday, what my two P38s, Radom, and Wa'd BHP would feed without notice jammed the luger up. It was mostly 124g lrn with 5.5g of Unique. I put together 5.9 red dot with a 115g fmj and an OAL about 1/4" longer than the other 9mm, it fired fifty rounds with out one failure using three different magazines. I set my OAL using a 1964 Finnish round as a guide.

rgg

[unspellable]

I finally gave in and got a Ruger Blackhawk with a 9 mm cylinder to burn off all the oddball crap I've accumulated.

As for my 9 mm Lugers, they don't give me any trouble if the ammo is right. In course of time I've learned that the bullet nose profile and cartrdige OAL have more to do with it than how hot the load is. A soft recoil spring will work with soft loads. But beware hot loads, they will over stress the toggle knobs. A stiff recoil spring will not correct this. The stiffness of the recoil spring has little effect on reducing the slide velocity, where it must match the impulse of the load and the slide velocity is in bringing the slide to a stop at its rearmost travel.

I have some drawings of the original recoil springs. The replacement springs sold by Wolffe do NOT match the originals. Among other things there free length is much longer than the original. Which is not to say they will not work.

Also, when mentioning hot or mild loads here, I'm talking about the impulse, not the pressure. Excess pressure may blow the gun apart but it has nothing to do with how the action works. The figure of merit for the load as far as working the action properly is the impulse.

[P. J. Heck]

We are attending the OGCA show at Wilmington, Ohio, on the way to a race car engine deal in Ill. on Saturday. For some reason OGCA has a ban on modern ammo and reloading components. What is a gun with out ammo??????? I am baffled by this one, but, point I am making is that I will not be able to get any ammo there for continuing this experiment. Unless there is a show in Ill. close to where we are going, I will have to wait till the Indy show on the19th to get a variety and some 9mm bullets as Wally-world didnt have any.

[RockinWR]

P.J./RGG,
* In keeping with No�«l's input on impulse energy, I find a fast burning powder like Bullseye ideal for Luger cycling.
* I think Randall had better results with Red Dot as it is a fast burning powder as well.
* Unique is a medium burning powder and, consequently, doesn't provide as much impulse energy as does the fast burners.
* As well, I find excellent accuracy w/ Bullseye in the Lugers I've fired. Nada cycling problems except for a rare stovepipe every once in a while or an occasional toggle not locking back on the last round toward the end of a session. So, I guess I'm lucky so far or a good clean P.08 minimally oiled at the right spots has got me by.
* I load target loads... a couple of tenths of a grain under loading manual max recommended. I find Unique & a 124 gr bullet more accurate in a P.38. I guess the longer P.38 barrel & heavier slug gives a medium burning rate powder more chance to completely combust. The 4 in. Luger barrel likes the fast powder & a 115gr fmj for much the same reason..complete combustion in a shorter barrel span. Nominal OAL, mixed brass, CCI primers, nothing real special. I do weigh each reload for consistency & will weigh bullets if I'm going for a tight group.
* FWIW. Each pistol is a hoss unto itself. Part of the fun is to work up to an ideal load for each, trying various component combinations. Gives just one more reason to be down @ the range popping caps!!
Respectfully,
Bob

[Roadkill]

PJ, recommend you try to find some Finnish 9mm surplus, its berdan primed (really will screw up a decapping pin if you aren't careful sorting it), last came through the Sportsman Guide a few years ago, is in a 25 round box, really good ammo for a luger. I have a few hundred rounds in my hid away stash ammo, rarely used it, most likely won't now cause as mentioned I finally got the right combination.

rgg

[unspellable]

The powder rate really has very little to do with the impulse. The powder has burned, the bullet has left the muzzle, and the pressure has dropped, all before the toggles hit the ramps. By the time the toggles hit the ramps the upper is coasting and already beginning to slow down.

Insofar as the powder rate makes any difference in impulse, a slower powder will give more impulse because you are using more of it. But now you are into hair splitting country.

Formula:

impulse = v*mb + 1.5*v*mp

In the English system where impulse is in lbf*s (pound force seconds), v is the muzzle velocity in fps, 1.5 is a rule of thumb factor for the average powder gas velocity, mb is the mass of the bullet and mp is the mass of the powder. The mass must be in slugs, so you divide the mass in grains by 225218 to convert grains to slugs. As the bullet is much heavier than the powder charge it tends to dominate. For the Luger the result should be in the neighborhood of 0.5 lbf*s.

The impulse occurs in a millisecond or less so the force pushing the upper back is on the order of 500 lbf or more. This is far greater than a 30 lbf spring so you can see why the spring stiffness has very little effect on the upper's velocity. The spring stiffness must be such as to bring the upper nearly to a stop by the time it reaches the rear most position with the toggles up. Too weak and we are battering the action when it stops at the rear, too strong and the action stops before it is fully back and fails to pick up the next round.

[P. J. Heck]

Thanks for the formulas---------I will see if I can apply them to justify your trouble in posting them. One aspect of your comment that I am assuming is that the heavier bullet is a desireable circumstance???????

[unspellable]

In general, a heavier or lighter bullet is neither good nor bad, it's a matter of having a load that produces a slide or upper velocity in the desired range, and having a matching recoil spring. For normal loads a heavier bullet will typically result in a higher impulse. In the past the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge was most commonly loaded with a bullet of about 124 grains and the 9 mm New Model Luger is set up accordingly. (The Old Model with the flat recoil spring was set up for a milder load with about the same weight of bullet but somewhat less velocity.)

The impulse does not have to be exact, just not so far off the ideal that you are either abusing the pistol or getting malfunctions. otherwise no pistol would operate with anything but a single load.

[Sieger]

Originally posted by unspellable

Another question is what do you have for a recoil spring? I've opend up six Lugers and found six different recoil springs, none of them original. Thor tells me he's seen the same thing. I think that in the past, due to the urban legend about the "hot" ammo, a lot of people have been dinking around with the recoil springs in an attempt to get the pistol to work with ordinary loads. The Luger will not work right if the recoil spring is wrong.

Dear Noel:

Why oh why won't someone out there make some proper new recoil springs for the Luger, as proper operation is dependant, for a great part, on this essential component?

Bob

[Sieger]

Originally posted by RockinWR
P.J./RGG,

* I load target loads... a couple of tenths of a grain under loading manual max recommended. I find Unique & a 124 gr bullet more accurate in a P.38. I guess the longer P.38 barrel & heavier slug gives a medium burning rate powder more chance to completely combust. The 4 in. Luger barrel likes the fast powder & a 115gr fmj for much the same reason..complete combustion in a shorter barrel span. Nominal OAL, mixed brass, CCI primers, nothing real special. I do weigh each reload for consistency & will weigh bullets if I'm going for a tight group.

Hi:

Try an AOL of 1.173 (with round nose bullets) and 3.6 to 3.9 grains of Bullseye. Somewhere in there, you will develope an outstanding target load that will give you 100% function.

Sieger

[markhepler]

Hi,

Someone else on the forum mentioned Winchester "Walmart" white-box range 115gr FMJ range ammo as a good shooter--I agree. (At $10 for 100 at a local lumber store, it's the cheapest stuff in my area, too)

It never jams in my 1920 P-08, whereas S & B fires well in a P-38 and Hi-Power, but messes up in my Luger, for some reason. Avoid Winchester "NATO"--too powerful--I think it's +P without any notice on the box.

Mark