Frank Manders Question...

Pete Ebbink · 03-20-2005, 08:14 PM

Hi Frank M. (and our other Mauser experts...),

Can you tell me if an Eagle/N stamped upside-down on the front of the front sight base (muzzle end) is appropriate for a 1939-1940's commercial Mauser ?

My newly acquired M1906/34 Mauser Swiss serial # 3721 v has such a stamping. Barrel is .30 cal, 4-3/4" length.

I will try to post photos is a week or two as my work load settles down a bit...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Regards,

Pete...

drbuster · 03-20-2005, 11:41 PM

Pete, if it means anything, my "41" date Mauser banner commercial has the same E/N proof on the front of the sight base.

MauserLugers · 03-21-2005, 10:23 AM

Pete,
It is commonly thought that 1940 is the date that the switch from Crown U to Eagle N took place. In Jan Still's book "Third Reich Lugers" he has a chart which breaks this down on page 138 and 139 and shows no Eagle N's in the "V" block.

Not being a Swiss collector I do not know the different Swiss variations, or what is correct on these, but a gun with a serial number of 3721v is a fairly early gun in the "v" block which I would assume should have Crown U markings. Guess you'll have to do more research on this, but it doesn't sound correct to me, but then again, I'm not a Swiss collector. -- Bill

Pete Ebbink · 03-21-2005, 07:09 PM

Hi Bill,

I am not near my luger books, but the Swiss luger books and I think even Jan Still's TRL places this very small Swiss-Mauser contract in the mid 3650 v to 3800 v serial range...probably not consecutive...there are even a few 3-digit v guns reported and photographed.

This Swiss contract guns can appear with DWM-marked toggles but mostly appear with the Mauser Banner on the toggle, can have blank chambers or swiss cross/sunbrst, can have "7,65 Kal" on the barrel or not, can be short or long framed M1906 styled guns...lots of variations which lead me to WAG that Mauser just pulled stuff out of inventory to fill orders for what some speculate were for a key Swiss sporting goods outfit...

Hi Doc,

Thanks for your feedback...I will bring this piece for show & tell at Reno...I keep trying to convince myself it is a refinished piece...but when I look more closely...I just do not know...figure you guys at Reno could look and let me know...I picked it up at a refinish price...

It has a high-polish finish that I heard Mauser did for commercial pieces, has oxidation and patina under the finish, and has lots of rust along internal surfaces and years of crude and oil/grease buid-ups...that normally get washed off in the refinish process...so I just do not know...

Regards,

Pete...

MauserLugers · 03-21-2005, 07:46 PM

Pete,
After further searching I found in TRL where it states that in the 3700v-3800v range a few had Eagle N markings. Seems confusing to me, as Mauser Police Lugers are not this way -- mixed up, but have a set pattern with the 1940 date seperating the Crown U from the Eagle N. Guess you knew all along what you had. Only other mixed up commercial that I'm aware of are some strange 42 or 41 (can't remember at the moment) two digit Banners that have the Crown U on them. Only a couple of these have been reported. -- Bill

Pete Ebbink · 03-21-2005, 08:10 PM

Hi Bill,

Thanks for checking TRL...

I was curious to know if the E/N stamp being upside-down was correct and also if other Swiss Mausers that other LF members might own have the E/N on the front sight base...

I have only seens two others of this small contract in person and If I recall correctly, did not have a stamp on the front sight base...

Regards,

Pete...

MauserLugers · 03-21-2005, 09:55 PM

Pete,
Again I'm not sure about Swiss Commercial Lugers, but all Mauser Banner Police Lugers have commercial markings of crown U or Eagle N located on 3 places, barrel site block, left receiver, and left breechblock and I would presume that would be the case for all the Swiss Lugers also. -- Bill

Lugerdoc · 03-22-2005, 10:45 AM

Pete your #3721v is in a range that Costanzo (page 410) says was made in 1935. It may have the horizonal crown over U or the Swiss Bernerprobe. He also mentions some 1939 dated examples with higher serials that are only Oberndorf proofed. I'd be cautious of this one. TH

Pete Ebbink · 03-23-2005, 10:10 PM

Hi Tom,

In a week or so I will do a photo essay of this piece and will post it here on the Luger Forum.

I will also pull together the references in some of the other luger books I have on Swiss lugers about the variations in this Swiss Mauser contract. I think Costanzo might be a bit dated in his conclusions about the 1935 date. Bobba, Still, and some of the later German books on Swiss lugers expand on this contract and details a bit more than when Sam did his work.

I will also bring this piece to Reno and will let LF members, there, do a take down and let me know what they think. I am especially eager to have Ron Wood look it over. I will ask Jan Still, Bob Hogan, and others take a look as well...

If I make the SE NAPCA event in TN in August, I will travel with it and have some of the good NAPCA members take a look as well.

This one has three (3) Eagle/Nitro proofs as Bill Munis mentioned...one on the left side of the receiver, one on the let side of the breechblock, and the upside-down one on the front edge of the front sight block/base.

Regards,

Pete...

Lugerdoc · 03-24-2005, 10:32 AM

Pete, I supposed that Mauser may still have been building up some commerical using left over 1939 receivers, even after the proofing laws changed in 1940. TH

Pete Ebbink · 04-04-2005, 05:26 PM

Photos posted in the Swiss section of my new Swiss Mauser # 3721v...

03-20-2005, 08:14 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Frank Manders Question... Hi Frank M. (and our other Mauser experts...), Can you tell me if an Eagle/N stamped upside-down on the front of the front sight base (muzzle end) is appropriate for a 1939-1940's commercial Mauser ? My newly acquired M1906/34 Mauser Swiss serial # 3721 v has such a stamping. Barrel is .30 cal, 4-3/4" length. I will try to post photos is a week or two as my work load settles down a bit... Thanks in advance for your help... Regards, Pete...

03-22-2005, 10:45 AM	#8
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Pete your #3721v is in a range that Costanzo (page 410) says was made in 1935. It may have the horizonal crown over U or the Swiss Bernerprobe. He also mentions some 1939 dated examples with higher serials that are only Oberndorf proofed. I'd be cautious of this one. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-24-2005, 10:32 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Pete, I supposed that Mauser may still have been building up some commerical using left over 1939 receivers, even after the proofing laws changed in 1940. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-20-2005, 11:41 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Pete, if it means anything, my "41" date Mauser banner commercial has the same E/N proof on the front of the sight base.

03-21-2005, 10:23 AM	#3
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Pete, It is commonly thought that 1940 is the date that the switch from Crown U to Eagle N took place. In Jan Still's book "Third Reich Lugers" he has a chart which breaks this down on page 138 and 139 and shows no Eagle N's in the "V" block. Not being a Swiss collector I do not know the different Swiss variations, or what is correct on these, but a gun with a serial number of 3721v is a fairly early gun in the "v" block which I would assume should have Crown U markings. Guess you'll have to do more research on this, but it doesn't sound correct to me, but then again, I'm not a Swiss collector. -- Bill

03-21-2005, 07:09 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Bill, I am not near my luger books, but the Swiss luger books and I think even Jan Still's TRL places this very small Swiss-Mauser contract in the mid 3650 v to 3800 v serial range...probably not consecutive...there are even a few 3-digit v guns reported and photographed. This Swiss contract guns can appear with DWM-marked toggles but mostly appear with the Mauser Banner on the toggle, can have blank chambers or swiss cross/sunbrst, can have "7,65 Kal" on the barrel or not, can be short or long framed M1906 styled guns...lots of variations which lead me to WAG that Mauser just pulled stuff out of inventory to fill orders for what some speculate were for a key Swiss sporting goods outfit... Hi Doc, Thanks for your feedback...I will bring this piece for show & tell at Reno...I keep trying to convince myself it is a refinished piece...but when I look more closely...I just do not know...figure you guys at Reno could look and let me know...I picked it up at a refinish price... It has a high-polish finish that I heard Mauser did for commercial pieces, has oxidation and patina under the finish, and has lots of rust along internal surfaces and years of crude and oil/grease buid-ups...that normally get washed off in the refinish process...so I just do not know... Regards, Pete...

03-21-2005, 07:46 PM	#5
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Pete, After further searching I found in TRL where it states that in the 3700v-3800v range a few had Eagle N markings. Seems confusing to me, as Mauser Police Lugers are not this way -- mixed up, but have a set pattern with the 1940 date seperating the Crown U from the Eagle N. Guess you knew all along what you had. Only other mixed up commercial that I'm aware of are some strange 42 or 41 (can't remember at the moment) two digit Banners that have the Crown U on them. Only a couple of these have been reported. -- Bill

03-21-2005, 08:10 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Bill, Thanks for checking TRL... I was curious to know if the E/N stamp being upside-down was correct and also if other Swiss Mausers that other LF members might own have the E/N on the front sight base... I have only seens two others of this small contract in person and If I recall correctly, did not have a stamp on the front sight base... Regards, Pete...

03-21-2005, 09:55 PM	#7
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Pete, Again I'm not sure about Swiss Commercial Lugers, but all Mauser Banner Police Lugers have commercial markings of crown U or Eagle N located on 3 places, barrel site block, left receiver, and left breechblock and I would presume that would be the case for all the Swiss Lugers also. -- Bill

03-23-2005, 10:10 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Tom, In a week or so I will do a photo essay of this piece and will post it here on the Luger Forum. I will also pull together the references in some of the other luger books I have on Swiss lugers about the variations in this Swiss Mauser contract. I think Costanzo might be a bit dated in his conclusions about the 1935 date. Bobba, Still, and some of the later German books on Swiss lugers expand on this contract and details a bit more than when Sam did his work. I will also bring this piece to Reno and will let LF members, there, do a take down and let me know what they think. I am especially eager to have Ron Wood look it over. I will ask Jan Still, Bob Hogan, and others take a look as well... If I make the SE NAPCA event in TN in August, I will travel with it and have some of the good NAPCA members take a look as well. This one has three (3) Eagle/Nitro proofs as Bill Munis mentioned...one on the left side of the receiver, one on the let side of the breechblock, and the upside-down one on the front edge of the front sight block/base. Regards, Pete...

04-04-2005, 05:26 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Photos posted in the Swiss section of my new Swiss Mauser # 3721v...