Trefferbild / Testfiring form P08

Vlim · 01-11-2005, 02:22 PM

Hi,

Recently purchased this little document. It's a testfiring form from the archives of a deceased German Weapons officer.

The document is unused, quite early and dates most probably from the reichswehr era.

It has room for a maximum of 4 trials, the details of which are recorded on the front (trial 1) and the back (3 - 4).

Per trail the following information can be recorded:
Day,
Shooter,
Grouping (width and hight in cm),
Signature of the observer,
Belonging to armory of...,
Misses,
Assistant,
From the armory of...,

The back of the document end with an entry that allows the description of replaced parts and space for a final approvement of the Weapons officer or his assistant.

Please note, that these can still be found in an unused/unissued state, making fraudulent use possible. It's easy to fill in a form, on original paper, and add it to a pistol trying to boost it's value or give credit to a fake.

pisto · 02-11-2005, 10:01 AM

Thanks for that interesting document! Is the legth of the cubes 1cm??
I wonder if it is Army ore Police?

Vlim · 02-12-2005, 12:41 PM

Hi Roland,

I think it's army but I'm not sure. The size of the cubes is actually about 0,5 cm. We did a little test on the local range and found this target to be so very small at 50 metres that testfiring must have been done using some sort of support construction. The document is DIN A/4 in size (it figures, as that is a German standard

).

Before anyone screams murder, the testfiring was done on a cleaned-up copy of the original.

pisto · 02-12-2005, 02:32 PM

Yes, it is still in use today in the Police armory, not the exact same style but the form and information.
It should be done by the guys using a special table and a small chair.
50 meters (164 feet) are a really high distance nowardays we use 25 meters (82 feet).

I have an instruction manual from 1905 . This booklet teaches exact how to do this test firings on Mauser rifles and Reichsrevolver.
They discribed things we still do today!

Vlim · 02-12-2005, 04:14 PM

Hi,

In that case, I'm sure you will enjoy this image.

It's the Mauser rifle testing range in 1913.

I also own a 1912 copy of the instructions on construction of firing ranges, including build plans, dimensions, etc...

It's called the 'Atlas zur Schiessstands-ordnung' and was published by Ernst Siegfried Mittler und Sohn from Berlin. (D.V.E. nr. 304).

Also, I read that artillery/LP08 stocks were used by testers in order to get a steadier shot when testing normal P08's.

G.W. Gill · 02-13-2005, 12:25 AM

Roland, Can we download one from a form inventory selection list? If so, could you give the URL as my german is not very good. Thanks, G. W.

Vlim · 02-13-2005, 06:50 AM

Hi,

The original cleaned-up version is a bit bigger so I can't upload it here. This one is a slightly condensed one, but it will work

G.W. Gill · 02-13-2005, 11:58 PM

Wow! Thanks!

Frank · 02-15-2005, 07:55 AM

Gerben, Thanks for the nice copy of the form. When I expanded and printed it, the small squares were about 0,5 cm or about the same size as the original!! What a nice addition.

John Sabato · 02-15-2005, 09:54 AM

Gerben, email me the full size graphic for the Trefferbild and I will post it for download for anyone who wants it...

pisto · 02-15-2005, 04:17 PM

Gerben,
the Testfiring is a difficult procedure and it is described at the time of WWII in Goerz book "Die Pistole 08".
The copy you own is the exact copy of a bigger one, used to shoot on the 50 meters distance. So the smaller copy is needed to mark the strikes and put them into an archive of the unit the gun belonges to.
The shooter uses that special table, something to support, like a sand bag and a chair to sit on.
I donÃ?Â´t really belive they have been allowed to use a Arty stock!
the picture is showing this target from that old 1905 Infanerie booklet!

http:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/buch.jpg

http:
[url]http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/seibe_aus_buch.jpg

I have shown both, the target and the Trefferbild we use still today so You can see the difference in the dimensions! Each circle is belonging to different guns like Pistol, Machine Pistol etc.
left hand is the real 25meter target
right hand is the trefferbild !
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/beid12.jpg

here I have written the legand of Your Trefferbild!
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ild_legend.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...schreibung.jpg

Testfiring is fulfilled when 5 rounds hit the center??

by the way, great picture of the shooting range! It remembers me on a range in Ferlach, the famous Hunting Gun City in Austria.

John Sabato · 02-15-2005, 06:51 PM

The full size image of this "trefferbild" can be found at this URL:

http://www.lugerforum.com/images/Trefferbild_big.jpg <=Just click Here courtesy of member Gerben van Vlimmeren of The Netherlands!

Vlim · 02-16-2005, 01:05 PM

Pisto,

Great! That really explains a lot. For our 'form users', it just means getting it to print on a larger sheet. (DIN A2 or something) in order to use it as a useable testfiring form.

Squares will be some 1 cm in width I guess.

Testfiring was fulfilled when all 5 shots fell into the marked (squares) area. So with this form twice the size at 50 meters, it would make sense. (some 12 centimeters wide and 20 centimeters high, give or take a cm). As a healthy luger tends to present a slightly elongated vertical pattern this again makes sense.

Just got the 1928 Police instruction manual in today. Will post some more details about it later.

01-11-2005, 02:22 PM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Trefferbild / Testfiring form P08 Hi, Recently purchased this little document. It's a testfiring form from the archives of a deceased German Weapons officer. The document is unused, quite early and dates most probably from the reichswehr era. It has room for a maximum of 4 trials, the details of which are recorded on the front (trial 1) and the back (3 - 4). Per trail the following information can be recorded: Day, Shooter, Grouping (width and hight in cm), Signature of the observer, Belonging to armory of..., Misses, Assistant, From the armory of..., The back of the document end with an entry that allows the description of replaced parts and space for a final approvement of the Weapons officer or his assistant. Please note, that these can still be found in an unused/unissued state, making fraudulent use possible. It's easy to fill in a form, on original paper, and add it to a pistol trying to boost it's value or give credit to a fake.

02-15-2005, 09:54 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Gerben, email me the full size graphic for the Trefferbild and I will post it for download for anyone who wants it... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-15-2005, 06:51 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The full size image of this "trefferbild" can be found at this URL: http://www.lugerforum.com/images/Trefferbild_big.jpg <=Just click Here courtesy of member Gerben van Vlimmeren of The Netherlands! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-11-2005, 10:01 AM	#2
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for that interesting document! Is the legth of the cubes 1cm?? I wonder if it is Army ore Police?

02-12-2005, 12:41 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Roland, I think it's army but I'm not sure. The size of the cubes is actually about 0,5 cm. We did a little test on the local range and found this target to be so very small at 50 metres that testfiring must have been done using some sort of support construction. The document is DIN A/4 in size (it figures, as that is a German standard ). Before anyone screams murder, the testfiring was done on a cleaned-up copy of the original.

02-12-2005, 02:32 PM	#4
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, it is still in use today in the Police armory, not the exact same style but the form and information. It should be done by the guys using a special table and a small chair. 50 meters (164 feet) are a really high distance nowardays we use 25 meters (82 feet). I have an instruction manual from 1905 . This booklet teaches exact how to do this test firings on Mauser rifles and Reichsrevolver. They discribed things we still do today!

02-12-2005, 04:14 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, In that case, I'm sure you will enjoy this image. It's the Mauser rifle testing range in 1913. I also own a 1912 copy of the instructions on construction of firing ranges, including build plans, dimensions, etc... It's called the 'Atlas zur Schiessstands-ordnung' and was published by Ernst Siegfried Mittler und Sohn from Berlin. (D.V.E. nr. 304). Also, I read that artillery/LP08 stocks were used by testers in order to get a steadier shot when testing normal P08's.

02-13-2005, 12:25 AM	#6
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Roland, Can we download one from a form inventory selection list? If so, could you give the URL as my german is not very good. Thanks, G. W.

02-13-2005, 06:50 AM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The original cleaned-up version is a bit bigger so I can't upload it here. This one is a slightly condensed one, but it will work

02-13-2005, 11:58 PM	#8
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow! Thanks!

02-15-2005, 07:55 AM	#9
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Gerben, Thanks for the nice copy of the form. When I expanded and printed it, the small squares were about 0,5 cm or about the same size as the original!! What a nice addition.

02-15-2005, 04:17 PM	#11
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gerben, the Testfiring is a difficult procedure and it is described at the time of WWII in Goerz book "Die Pistole 08". The copy you own is the exact copy of a bigger one, used to shoot on the 50 meters distance. So the smaller copy is needed to mark the strikes and put them into an archive of the unit the gun belonges to. The shooter uses that special table, something to support, like a sand bag and a chair to sit on. I donÃ?Â´t really belive they have been allowed to use a Arty stock! the picture is showing this target from that old 1905 Infanerie booklet! http: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/buch.jpg http: [url]http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/seibe_aus_buch.jpg I have shown both, the target and the Trefferbild we use still today so You can see the difference in the dimensions! Each circle is belonging to different guns like Pistol, Machine Pistol etc. left hand is the real 25meter target right hand is the trefferbild ! http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/beid12.jpg here I have written the legand of Your Trefferbild! http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ild_legend.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...schreibung.jpg Testfiring is fulfilled when 5 rounds hit the center?? by the way, great picture of the shooting range! It remembers me on a range in Ferlach, the famous Hunting Gun City in Austria.

02-16-2005, 01:05 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Pisto, Great! That really explains a lot. For our 'form users', it just means getting it to print on a larger sheet. (DIN A2 or something) in order to use it as a useable testfiring form. Squares will be some 1 cm in width I guess. Testfiring was fulfilled when all 5 shots fell into the marked (squares) area. So with this form twice the size at 50 meters, it would make sense. (some 12 centimeters wide and 20 centimeters high, give or take a cm). As a healthy luger tends to present a slightly elongated vertical pattern this again makes sense. Just got the 1928 Police instruction manual in today. Will post some more details about it later.