Northwest US luger experts wanted

tnak · 12-16-2004, 01:45 AM

I posted a pic of an 1917 artillery luger here last year and have since showed it to a few local gun "experts". I have gotten many different opinions as to it being all original or refinished. The gun came with a snail drum, stock/holster and 2 mag cases. I was wondering if there is anyone close to Boise Idaho who can look at this and give me an honest opinion of it. By the way, it will be coming up for sale as soon as I can find out what its true value is. I can travel to N. Cal, OR, WA. Will also show my Kreighoff, broomhandle and #9 as well. TIA Tracy

Ron Smith · 12-16-2004, 08:45 AM

Hi Tracy,

This my opinion after looking at the photos on your original post.

The holster and stock are high quality repros.

The pistol appears to be a very good restoration. Possibly done by Ted Green,or someone with similar ability. Look for three small red dots or punch marks in a triangle configuration on the bottom of the stock lug or in the mag well. Ted's restoration signature.

What is the bore like? Very few artilleries have a mint or perfect bore. If the bore is frosty, rough,or dark. That says that the pistol saw some use. If so, then it's very unlikely that the finish and grips would be that pristine, after
nearly 90 years.

On the other hand if the bore is mint. Then it is possible that this pistol was captured in as new condition. And was well taken care of in someones collection. Or was perfectly stored someplace.

My bet is that it's been restored.

Ron

Russ · 12-16-2004, 08:59 AM

Tracy
I will be at the Boise gun show Jan. 15-16. I would be glad to look at it and give you my opinion. Email me at rewithem1@aol.com

Russ <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 12-16-2004, 10:49 AM

I have moved Tracy's original posting photos from last year to this new discussion...to allow other members a chance to see the photos and comment.

I tend to think it is a nicely done rework...but do not think it is Ted's work. This refinish receipe is very "blackish"...I think Ted has gotten much closer to the DWM rust blue color.

I have seem many, similar refinished pieces sold at gun shows by Bill Christensen and Fred Fiet...this one looks like the same "blackish" color as the lugers on these fellows tables.

My guess at price/value for Tracy's LP-08 would be in the $ 1200-1350 price range...assuming it is a refinished piece.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 12-16-2004, 10:50 AM

Last two photos :

tnak · 12-16-2004, 02:26 PM

Thank you for your replies. I am still not certain as to its originality. I checked the bore again and it looks pretty good to me. It is not perfectly mirror finished, but it has no pitting or frosting. I will take this gun to the Boise gun show to let Russ have a look at it. I tend to think that it is reblued just because it is in such good shape, but still am not certain. As for the holster, I believe it is original as I have not had anyone who has seen it in person say otherwise. But the stock has a good chance of being a repro. By the way, how do you post pics here? I would like to show the snail drum and loading tool which came with this pistol. Thanks again Tracy
I just found Edwards post on how to upload pics. If I can figure it out, I will post pics soon.

George Anderson · 12-16-2004, 04:22 PM

If your stock is not original it is probably German made for the Finns. Regardless, it's a far sight better than the repro junk often seen about.

I do not know that your photos indicate a restored pistol either however I would question your grips. Are the walnut grips numbered to the pistol? They look a bit like Mauser grips.

SteveM · 12-16-2004, 07:05 PM

Please post pics of the serial number front of frame, barrel gauge and serial number of barrel. Would like to see if the "halo" around the stamps is present. This would be a sign of re-finish.

SteveM

tnak · 12-17-2004, 01:56 AM

Reply to George. I have removed the grips for the first time and they have the number 16 stamped towards the center of the grips, so I think that they are numbered to the pistol.
Reply to Steve. I just tried taking some pics of the area in front of the receiver, but could not get them to come out clearly. I have changed cameras and do not have the macro feature. I will try and borrow a camera and will try to email you the pics. I do not see a halo around the stamps, but then again I do not know exactly what you are referring to. As far as posting new pics, I haven't been able to upload pics as described by Edward Tinker. So new pics will have to wait on this board.

Ron Smith · 12-17-2004, 09:12 AM

Pete,
It does look like one of Bill Christensen's assembly line Lugers. Did'nt think of that. Good possibility.
Ron

Edward Tinker · 12-17-2004, 09:37 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tnak:
As far as posting new pics, I haven't been able to upload pics as described by Edward Tinker. So new pics will have to wait on this board.<hr /></blockquote>Your original pictures are too large I bet and they exceed the size you can upload. ??

John Sabato · 12-17-2004, 09:53 AM

Picture filesize limitation is 200K... see if you can crop the photos and save some of the space... show only the essential views... If that still doesn't work, there are other alternatives (Member Gallery)...

Big Norm · 12-19-2004, 01:43 AM

Tracy,
I could be wrong but the rear sight looks like the serial number might be missing on the tang sight. But it looks like maybe something MIGHT BE there but very lightly. The grips have either been bleached, recheckered or are repro. Too clean to be almost 90 years old. The stocks wood looks repro. The picture of the Locking Bolt is fuzzy but it looks as though it MIGHT BE restrawed.
Big Norm

George Anderson · 12-19-2004, 09:10 AM

I must be missing something here. The first photo above shows the breech block/toggle train of what appears to be a very genuine original finish. Of the bunch, thje first and second are the sharpest photos and most revealing.

I think it's original. As for the stock, it is clearly European walnut.

Big Norm · 12-19-2004, 03:16 PM

George,
Yah, the stock may be European walnut but modern construction. It looks out-of-the-box new.

The holster is interesting. The straps look aged as does the cup. But the washers and maybe the screws look Home Depot. Would like to take a real look at the holster and its markings. A closer look might make all the leather the real buy. I can't tell from the pictures.

I agree that the toggle train looks good. But that is a flat surface that is easy for a decent restorer to deal with. May be original considering the wear around the side of the extractor and the wear around the edges numbers. But I will keep my mouth shut with any comment. Too many other things to comment on. I would like to hear Russ's comments after he personally sees it. The pictures are just too fuzzy.
Big Norm

tnak · 12-22-2004, 12:32 PM

Here is the photo that SteveM requested. I hope I got this now. Tracy

tnak · 12-22-2004, 12:59 PM

Photo #1

Russ · 01-11-2005, 11:01 PM

Tracy
I will be at the show all weekend. Looking forwared to meeting you and looking at your lugers.
Russ

tnak · 01-11-2005, 11:03 PM

Hi Russ, Thanks for the reminder, I should be able to make it for sure on Sunday and possibly Saturday. Look forward to seeing you there. Tracy

12-16-2004, 08:45 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Tracy, This my opinion after looking at the photos on your original post. The holster and stock are high quality repros. The pistol appears to be a very good restoration. Possibly done by Ted Green,or someone with similar ability. Look for three small red dots or punch marks in a triangle configuration on the bottom of the stock lug or in the mag well. Ted's restoration signature. What is the bore like? Very few artilleries have a mint or perfect bore. If the bore is frosty, rough,or dark. That says that the pistol saw some use. If so, then it's very unlikely that the finish and grips would be that pristine, after nearly 90 years. On the other hand if the bore is mint. Then it is possible that this pistol was captured in as new condition. And was well taken care of in someones collection. Or was perfectly stored someplace. My bet is that it's been restored. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-16-2004, 08:59 AM	#3
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Tracy I will be at the Boise gun show Jan. 15-16. I would be glad to look at it and give you my opinion. Email me at rewithem1@aol.com Russ <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

12-17-2004, 09:12 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Pete, It does look like one of Bill Christensen's assembly line Lugers. Did'nt think of that. Good possibility. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-17-2004, 09:37 AM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by tnak: <strong>As far as posting new pics, I haven't been able to upload pics as described by Edward Tinker. So new pics will have to wait on this board.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Your original pictures are too large I bet and they exceed the size you can upload. ?? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-17-2004, 09:53 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Picture filesize limitation is 200K... see if you can crop the photos and save some of the space... show only the essential views... If that still doesn't work, there are other alternatives (Member Gallery)... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-16-2004, 01:45 AM	#1
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Northwest US luger experts wanted I posted a pic of an 1917 artillery luger here last year and have since showed it to a few local gun "experts". I have gotten many different opinions as to it being all original or refinished. The gun came with a snail drum, stock/holster and 2 mag cases. I was wondering if there is anyone close to Boise Idaho who can look at this and give me an honest opinion of it. By the way, it will be coming up for sale as soon as I can find out what its true value is. I can travel to N. Cal, OR, WA. Will also show my Kreighoff, broomhandle and #9 as well. TIA Tracy

12-16-2004, 10:49 AM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I have moved Tracy's original posting photos from last year to this new discussion...to allow other members a chance to see the photos and comment. I tend to think it is a nicely done rework...but do not think it is Ted's work. This refinish receipe is very "blackish"...I think Ted has gotten much closer to the DWM rust blue color. I have seem many, similar refinished pieces sold at gun shows by Bill Christensen and Fred Fiet...this one looks like the same "blackish" color as the lugers on these fellows tables. My guess at price/value for Tracy's LP-08 would be in the $ 1200-1350 price range...assuming it is a refinished piece. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-16-2004, 10:50 AM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Last two photos :

12-16-2004, 02:26 PM	#6
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for your replies. I am still not certain as to its originality. I checked the bore again and it looks pretty good to me. It is not perfectly mirror finished, but it has no pitting or frosting. I will take this gun to the Boise gun show to let Russ have a look at it. I tend to think that it is reblued just because it is in such good shape, but still am not certain. As for the holster, I believe it is original as I have not had anyone who has seen it in person say otherwise. But the stock has a good chance of being a repro. By the way, how do you post pics here? I would like to show the snail drum and loading tool which came with this pistol. Thanks again Tracy I just found Edwards post on how to upload pics. If I can figure it out, I will post pics soon.

12-16-2004, 04:22 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	If your stock is not original it is probably German made for the Finns. Regardless, it's a far sight better than the repro junk often seen about. I do not know that your photos indicate a restored pistol either however I would question your grips. Are the walnut grips numbered to the pistol? They look a bit like Mauser grips.

12-16-2004, 07:05 PM	#8
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Please post pics of the serial number front of frame, barrel gauge and serial number of barrel. Would like to see if the "halo" around the stamps is present. This would be a sign of re-finish. SteveM

12-17-2004, 01:56 AM	#9
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Reply to George. I have removed the grips for the first time and they have the number 16 stamped towards the center of the grips, so I think that they are numbered to the pistol. Reply to Steve. I just tried taking some pics of the area in front of the receiver, but could not get them to come out clearly. I have changed cameras and do not have the macro feature. I will try and borrow a camera and will try to email you the pics. I do not see a halo around the stamps, but then again I do not know exactly what you are referring to. As far as posting new pics, I haven't been able to upload pics as described by Edward Tinker. So new pics will have to wait on this board.

12-19-2004, 01:43 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tracy, I could be wrong but the rear sight looks like the serial number might be missing on the tang sight. But it looks like maybe something MIGHT BE there but very lightly. The grips have either been bleached, recheckered or are repro. Too clean to be almost 90 years old. The stocks wood looks repro. The picture of the Locking Bolt is fuzzy but it looks as though it MIGHT BE restrawed. Big Norm

12-19-2004, 09:10 AM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I must be missing something here. The first photo above shows the breech block/toggle train of what appears to be a very genuine original finish. Of the bunch, thje first and second are the sharpest photos and most revealing. I think it's original. As for the stock, it is clearly European walnut.

12-19-2004, 03:16 PM	#15
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	George, Yah, the stock may be European walnut but modern construction. It looks out-of-the-box new. The holster is interesting. The straps look aged as does the cup. But the washers and maybe the screws look Home Depot. Would like to take a real look at the holster and its markings. A closer look might make all the leather the real buy. I can't tell from the pictures. I agree that the toggle train looks good. But that is a flat surface that is easy for a decent restorer to deal with. May be original considering the wear around the side of the extractor and the wear around the edges numbers. But I will keep my mouth shut with any comment. Too many other things to comment on. I would like to hear Russ's comments after he personally sees it. The pictures are just too fuzzy. Big Norm

12-22-2004, 12:32 PM	#16
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is the photo that SteveM requested. I hope I got this now. Tracy

12-22-2004, 12:59 PM	#17
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Photo #1 Attached Thumbnails

01-11-2005, 11:01 PM	#18
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Tracy I will be at the show all weekend. Looking forwared to meeting you and looking at your lugers. Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

01-11-2005, 11:03 PM	#19
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Russ, Thanks for the reminder, I should be able to make it for sure on Sunday and possibly Saturday. Look forward to seeing you there. Tracy