I think it is 1920 commercial. True?

[RC]

Sorry for the crummy photo. Okay here are the answers to the collector sheet. Which commercial luger is it? Thanks for helping out the unknowning.


1.DWM

2.No markings

3.Squared and knurled

4.no grip safety

5.Stock lug present

6.9mm

7.Walnut,checkered,no border #to serial number backside

8.safe in forward position marked GESICHERT

9.Vertical crown N proof left of serial #, Horizontal crown N proof on left side toggle. SN 95XX

10.4"

11.marked GELADEN

12.rear v notch, front serated blade

13.None






http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/rdclugr.jpg

[Thor]

This is a police gun that was a 1920 Commercial that was rebarreled or it was made the same time the commericals were made. It has a sear safety. Most commercial 1920s have a subscript on the serial and they are 30 Luger with a shorter barrel. Your 9mm chambering and the sear safety indicate a police Luger. Is the pin that hold the sear safety (above and behind the sideplate over the left frame rail (just about the sear bar) brass or steel? Does it have any markings on the undersid eof the magazine! Thanks! Does it have military markings stamps on the right reciever front? Thor

[RC]

I don't see any rebuild marks and all numbers match. I guess they could have serial numbered the barrel during a rebuild. There is no magazine for it. There is one strange mark on the barrel and one on the trigger guard. I could not identify them and thought that it was just in proccess markings from manufacturing. I will try and get the macro working on the camera and post here. I found no markings on the right reciever front. Thanks for helping. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but this was a bring back by my Uncle from WW2. My father said he remembers it being brand new when he saw it in 1945. Now it's a little worn.

[Thor]

I think this is a 1920 Commercial that was rebarrel during the Nazi Era and the sear saftey added then! Let's hear what the experts say, I am not an expert! Just a WAG on my part! Thor

[RC]

Sorry for the quality. I think the mark is just a ding, but it might mean something to your guys. It's just above SN


The more I look at it, the pic is too poor. oh well..




http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/rclug2.jpg

[RC]

[Frank]

A wood bottom, Nickel Plated rolled tin body. Good Luck !!

rc,


The stamp above the serial number sure looks a lot like the Simson E/6 stamp without the 6 being present. Other opinions from you guys on this? Can you get a better photo of the stamp?


marvin

[Thor]

Taking a look at the 1920 Commercial posted by rc, need an expert opinion on it and I am just guessing. Thanks! Thor

[Johnny Peppers]

Is it just the photograph, or does the serial number on the frame appear to be pantagraphed? The number is slightly out of focus, but it appears to have the cutter marks of a pantagraph. Also the letter suffix appears to be an incomplete g (missing the left side of the bottom of the loop on the g). The numbers do not appear to be the proper case for a Luger serial number. Notice that the top of the three (3) is rounded, and I believe all were flat on the top if correct. I have seen a five digit 1920 Commercial with the remnants of a letter suffix, but with this being a four digit pistol, I would have thought they would completely removed any original suffix and replaced it with a letter suffix in the series beginning with i.

What does everyone else think about the serial number?

[Thor]

Johnny, when you say panagraphed, do you mean one set of numbers were used to copy to another gun? And do panagraphed letters have a wider letter and the surface and narrower at the bottom, kind of beveled? I assume a DIE would stamp the letters vertically into the metal. I have seen some serial Numbers in the frame that had this bevel look to them as a very Suspicious GESICHERT Marking that was WAY too deep on the same gun. This is really good information, can you elaborate on a strike versus panagraphed number? Thanks a bunch! Thor

[BILL]

..on this pistol's serial stamp were suspicious at first. I noticed that the numbers almost look 'cut' into the steel (on the frame). I also wondered about the modern looking numerals but upon looking at some of the serials in 'Weimar Lugers' I found one that is almost identical to the one pictured here. It has the rounded numeral three and also, and this is apparent, the suffix stamp appears to have the bottom half buffed off. This might have been a result of the refurb process. The barrel is an obvious replacement but that is fairly standard. If you want to see some really close examples see pp.138-145 of 'Weimar Lugers'. Several police types have a suffix on the frame and not on the barrel or side rail. Interesting time period for the Luger. I am sure the guys in the factory woudn't have believed we would ever be discussing it.

[Thor]

"I am sure the guys in the factory woudn't have believed we would ever be discussing it. " Just think the fun they might have saying, hey lets put a marking that we havent used before, that will drive them nuts.....in another 50-60 years when all the people they can ask about it are dead and gone! Think about it, we are marking fanatics playing our detective roles! Thor

[BILL]

[Johnny Peppers]

Many jewelers use a pantograph (or pantagraph) to engrave everything from jewelry to nameplates. It uses a master number or letter, and the machine follows the master plate on one end and engraves the letter to any size desired on the other end using a tiny rotating cutter. It uses a cutter much like a tiny dentists drill to cut the new letter or number.

After I had a few minutes I went back to Still's books, and some 3's are indeed round topped, but I believe that in each case the beginning and end of the 3 had a tiny dot instead of being plain.

I don't know if you got anything out of my above explaination, but imagine the pantograph machine as a set of crossed sticks. If you fasten them in the middle, each end will be the same size as you spread the sticks. Now if you move the attachment point 3/4's down the sticks, one end will be much smaller if the other end was left the same distance as originally set. In this way the operator can control exactly the size of the letter or number desired. He merely follows the original pattern with one end, and the machine reproduces it at any desired size with the other end.

[Kyrie]

Hi RC,


Based on what I can see in the photos you have either a 1920 Commercial reworked for police service, or a 1920 Military/Police that never had a 1920 chamber date stamped. Like a lot of the interregnum and early Weimar period Lugers, itâ??s hard to classify precisely. The chaos that was Germany during this period is reflected in the Lugers produced/rebuilt during this period. The works of Man reflect the state of Man :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Thor]

Thanks Johnny I understand the panagraph, I was more curious about how you can tell by looking at the letters that they were not stamped! This is very good infor! Thanks! Thor