My understanding about Lugers/ammo.

GunCat · 08-24-2004, 11:59 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the general consensus I got from reading "The Luger Pistol Mechanical Features" and other sources.
----
Lugers made before 1930, are all designed to fire an (atleast) 115 grain projectile at (or less than depending on weight) 1025FPS, a relatively light load. Lugers made in this era were also known to be much smoother and all were hand polished etc.

Lugers made after 1930, especially Mauser Lugers, were designed for HIGHER than normal pressures. The whole toggle was buffed out, and the chamber and everything, even the springs were enhanced. Mauser went even farther and added a lot of bulk, but made tolerances tiny.

The result, after 1930, is that the lugers action wasn't nearly as smooth, and it also required sufficiently hot 9mm to cycle the action. The lugers made after 1930 are also known to have a shorter life despite the buffering. Pre-1930 lugers needed lighter loads, otherwise it would cause parts of the action to move excessively faster than other parts in the action, causing damage and wear.

For optimum reliability and lifespan:
It is recommended that you made your own loads for it, because the cartridge length and size has to be almost PERFECT in order to ensure reliable operation. Likely a result from the fine measurements and manufacturing tolerances in the rest of the Luger, and it's magazine. For loads, it's recommended to find something that will be as light as you can and still cycle the action. It's recommended for you to start out with loads insufficient to work the action and work your way up to something that does. Also, the more you shoot a luger, especially one made after 1930, you should progressively make your loads lighter as the action smooths itself out.

[The overall length has to be 1.180 for ball ammo and 1.150 for Hollow point. Needs to be extremely close measurements.]

saxman · 08-24-2004, 01:21 PM

Just use Winchester 'white box' 115 gr FMJ. Works great.

unspellable · 08-25-2004, 08:47 AM

The 115 grain bullet at 1025 fps was intended for the "old" model Luger with the flat recoil spring. Around 1904 the "new" model luger with the coiled recoil spring came out and the 9 mm load was stepped up a bit.

The Mauser Lugers are not "buffered". Nor are they stronger, unless perhaps the metal is better. Pressure is not the real concern when avoiding wear and tear on the gun but rather cartridge impulse. Excessive impulse will tend to do things like knock the toggles off.

In today's world these are "fun" guns or collector pieces so there is no sense abusing the gun with hot loads. Sufficient steam to reliably work the action is enough steam.

The cartridge OAL is the thing to worry about for reliablity. All available factory ammo today is too short, although a few seem to work such as the above mentioned Wally World Winchester load. If you hand load than you can set the correct QAL.

Vlim · 08-25-2004, 11:00 AM

Hi,

The first story is not entirely correct. Several experiments with other (read cheaper) construction materials used in bullets and cases as well as the introduction of 9mm submachineguns meant that a cartridge, once 'built' for the Parabellum was used in a large number of guises and qualities and some measures were taken to improve reliability under changed circumstances.

Since we don't really have to shoot wartime quality 9mm ammo, this isn't a very big problem anymore. Sticking to a brand that follows the original 9mm specifications, like Sellier & Bellot or Winchester means reliable operation in most cases, especially as their OAL is very close to original specs.

A quality check on pistol and magazine springs is needed to assure correct functioning of the pistol.

My 1913 Dutch DWM, the 1937 S/42 and the VoPo all digest 115gr and 124gr S&B without much problems. Lost some small springs during the last few years, but that's normal wear.

Basically, if you don't want to break anything, don't shoot them. If you can live with the occasional (unnumbered) spring breakage then just shoot the S&B and Walmart. If you want custom performance, reload.

Johnny C. Kitchens · 08-25-2004, 10:12 PM

I couldn't even get ammo loaded to 1.170" to fit the magazines. I can't imagine 1.180" length ammo working. I have a 1942 Luger and I've used ammo loaded to a length of 1.065" with hollow points and they work great! I've also been loading all sorts of bullets from 88gr to 147gr and if the load is right, it works. With a good magazine, the Luger isn't as finicky as it has been made out to be. Shoot and enjoy...

Stevie · 08-26-2004, 12:57 AM

My mismatched Mauser 42 runs as reliably as any other 9mm. And really not picky about ammo, it will shoot ammo brands that my DWM chokes on (Fiocci).

Stevie.

unspellable · 08-26-2004, 08:06 AM

The cartridge OAL relates to the magazine, not the pistol itself. Some after market magazines do not have the original dimensions. In fact it has occured to me that in late years some magazines may be shorter front to back to accomodate today's shorter factory ammo. In any case, the nose must rest on the front of the magazine so that there is a small air gap between the case mouth and the cartridge under it.

It's a mystery to me as to how it came about that today's ammo is shorter. I can see no advantage in shortening it.

Shooter grade Lugers tend to have all sorts of non-standard recoil springs in them. The various springs in a Luger are a delicate balancing act.

Waschbaer · 08-29-2004, 09:22 PM

Call me crazy, but all loads approximating original specs given here will hang up in my luger at least once in ca. 100 rounds. The winchester is best, but it too hangs up occasionally. My personal favorite of 6.2grains AA5 with a hornady 124g XTP @ 1.094 +-.002 works miraculously well. As usual, don't use my loads as listed, start low, work your way up checking for excessive pressure, etc. I expressly disavow any liability for injury, damages, or death caused by my listed load. Postscriptum: I use original magazines, this load works in both my shooter and my collector grade 1915, the latter, however, I have stopped shooting.

08-24-2004, 11:59 AM	#1
GunCat User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My understanding about Lugers/ammo. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the general consensus I got from reading "The Luger Pistol Mechanical Features" and other sources. ---- Lugers made before 1930, are all designed to fire an (atleast) 115 grain projectile at (or less than depending on weight) 1025FPS, a relatively light load. Lugers made in this era were also known to be much smoother and all were hand polished etc. Lugers made after 1930, especially Mauser Lugers, were designed for HIGHER than normal pressures. The whole toggle was buffed out, and the chamber and everything, even the springs were enhanced. Mauser went even farther and added a lot of bulk, but made tolerances tiny. The result, after 1930, is that the lugers action wasn't nearly as smooth, and it also required sufficiently hot 9mm to cycle the action. The lugers made after 1930 are also known to have a shorter life despite the buffering. Pre-1930 lugers needed lighter loads, otherwise it would cause parts of the action to move excessively faster than other parts in the action, causing damage and wear. For optimum reliability and lifespan: It is recommended that you made your own loads for it, because the cartridge length and size has to be almost PERFECT in order to ensure reliable operation. Likely a result from the fine measurements and manufacturing tolerances in the rest of the Luger, and it's magazine. For loads, it's recommended to find something that will be as light as you can and still cycle the action. It's recommended for you to start out with loads insufficient to work the action and work your way up to something that does. Also, the more you shoot a luger, especially one made after 1930, you should progressively make your loads lighter as the action smooths itself out. [The overall length has to be 1.180 for ball ammo and 1.150 for Hollow point. Needs to be extremely close measurements.] __________________ P.08 Luger (Mauser, 1940) Others: Beretta 92FS, Mosin Nagant 91/30, Mauser M48, Beretta 3032

08-24-2004, 01:21 PM	#2
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just use Winchester 'white box' 115 gr FMJ. Works great. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-25-2004, 10:12 PM	#5
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I couldn't even get ammo loaded to 1.170" to fit the magazines. I can't imagine 1.180" length ammo working. I have a 1942 Luger and I've used ammo loaded to a length of 1.065" with hollow points and they work great! I've also been loading all sorts of bullets from 88gr to 147gr and if the load is right, it works. With a good magazine, the Luger isn't as finicky as it has been made out to be. Shoot and enjoy... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

08-25-2004, 08:47 AM	#3
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The 115 grain bullet at 1025 fps was intended for the "old" model Luger with the flat recoil spring. Around 1904 the "new" model luger with the coiled recoil spring came out and the 9 mm load was stepped up a bit. The Mauser Lugers are not "buffered". Nor are they stronger, unless perhaps the metal is better. Pressure is not the real concern when avoiding wear and tear on the gun but rather cartridge impulse. Excessive impulse will tend to do things like knock the toggles off. In today's world these are "fun" guns or collector pieces so there is no sense abusing the gun with hot loads. Sufficient steam to reliably work the action is enough steam. The cartridge OAL is the thing to worry about for reliablity. All available factory ammo today is too short, although a few seem to work such as the above mentioned Wally World Winchester load. If you hand load than you can set the correct QAL.

08-25-2004, 11:00 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,048 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,952 Times in 1,199 Posts	Hi, The first story is not entirely correct. Several experiments with other (read cheaper) construction materials used in bullets and cases as well as the introduction of 9mm submachineguns meant that a cartridge, once 'built' for the Parabellum was used in a large number of guises and qualities and some measures were taken to improve reliability under changed circumstances. Since we don't really have to shoot wartime quality 9mm ammo, this isn't a very big problem anymore. Sticking to a brand that follows the original 9mm specifications, like Sellier & Bellot or Winchester means reliable operation in most cases, especially as their OAL is very close to original specs. A quality check on pistol and magazine springs is needed to assure correct functioning of the pistol. My 1913 Dutch DWM, the 1937 S/42 and the VoPo all digest 115gr and 124gr S&B without much problems. Lost some small springs during the last few years, but that's normal wear. Basically, if you don't want to break anything, don't shoot them. If you can live with the occasional (unnumbered) spring breakage then just shoot the S&B and Walmart. If you want custom performance, reload.

08-26-2004, 12:57 AM	#6
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My mismatched Mauser 42 runs as reliably as any other 9mm. And really not picky about ammo, it will shoot ammo brands that my DWM chokes on (Fiocci). Stevie.

08-26-2004, 08:06 AM	#7
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The cartridge OAL relates to the magazine, not the pistol itself. Some after market magazines do not have the original dimensions. In fact it has occured to me that in late years some magazines may be shorter front to back to accomodate today's shorter factory ammo. In any case, the nose must rest on the front of the magazine so that there is a small air gap between the case mouth and the cartridge under it. It's a mystery to me as to how it came about that today's ammo is shorter. I can see no advantage in shortening it. Shooter grade Lugers tend to have all sorts of non-standard recoil springs in them. The various springs in a Luger are a delicate balancing act.

08-29-2004, 09:22 PM	#8
Waschbaer User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 47 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Call me crazy, but all loads approximating original specs given here will hang up in my luger at least once in ca. 100 rounds. The winchester is best, but it too hangs up occasionally. My personal favorite of 6.2grains AA5 with a hornady 124g XTP @ 1.094 +-.002 works miraculously well. As usual, don't use my loads as listed, start low, work your way up checking for excessive pressure, etc. I expressly disavow any liability for injury, damages, or death caused by my listed load. Postscriptum: I use original magazines, this load works in both my shooter and my collector grade 1915, the latter, however, I have stopped shooting.