Best Powder for Accuracy in 9MM?

Sieger · 07-23-2003, 10:03 PM

Dear Luger friends:

I have had great experience with Bullseye powder in both of my 9MM Lugers (4 inch barrels). Both reliability and accuracy have been excellent.

Please let me know the powders that have given you the best accuracy and reliability in your 9MMs.

Bob

Thor · 07-23-2003, 10:44 PM

Unique in the 4" barrels, Blue dot in the 8" barrels.

Doubs · 07-23-2003, 11:29 PM

Both AA#7 and WW-571 work well and meter beautifully. Both give good accuracy but AA#7 tends to leave too much residue to suit me. If you can ever find it, there's a French powder called BA-9 that was formulated especially for the 9mm and is hands-down the best powder I've ever used in the Parabellum. It's imported to the US but no one locally carries it and the haz-mat charges make it too expensive to order in small quantities. I don't recall the manufacturer's name at the moment.

Frank · 07-23-2003, 11:50 PM

Hi Bob, I will generally use "Unique".

However, since commercial ammo is so plentiful and nearly as cheap as hand loads, I don't load much 9mm anymore.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-24-2003, 12:42 AM

Bob; 6gr of Unique in ALL Barrels.
Lonnie

Doubs · 07-24-2003, 11:06 AM

Frank & Lonnie are both correct; Unique is an excellent powder and 6.0 grains behind either the 115 or 125 grain bullet. My only complaint about Unique is that it doesn't meter well at all and weighing each load becomes tedious after awhile. Still, it's available everywhere and works the Luger action quite nicely.

Sieger · 07-24-2003, 11:48 PM

Dear Doubs:

Yes, I've used Unique before, but not with the accuracy I have obtained with Bullseye. Also, for me, Unique leaves too much soot in the action and barrel.

A load of 4.8 grs of Unique is very adequate in both my DWM and BYF. I can't imagine loading 6.0 grs. in either of them.

Bob

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-25-2003, 12:37 AM

Bob; maybe you don"t load enough Unique to get an accurate load?
Lonnie

Sieger · 07-25-2003, 09:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman:
Bob; maybe you don"t load enough Unique to get an accurate load?
Lonnie<hr /></blockquote>Dear Lonnie:

The commercial reloading manuals are all over the place with maximum loads for the 9mm Luger.

For the 125 gr. bullet, Hornady says a maximum of 5.1 grs. of Unique, Speer a maximum of 5.9 grs.

My Lugers have always been the most accurate with loads that just reliability work the action.

The original German text manuals for the Pistole Parabellum site a 1050 fps load for the 4 inch (100 mm) barrel. Loads crafted around the original parameters have always functioned the best and yielded the tightest groups for me.

What has been your experience with the higher pressure loads as far as accuracy and reliability go?

Bob

Doubs · 07-25-2003, 11:00 AM

Bob, I've used 6.0 grains of Unique for many years without a problem and it's always been a good load in my Lugers. However, if 4.8 grains works in your pistols and you are satisfied, that's all that really matters. 9mm in the US has traditionally been under loaded, especially when used in the Luger. My choice of 6.0 grains of Unique isn't my own idea.... I believe it was first written up by Maj. George Nonte who liked the 9mm at a time when it was a pretty moribund cartridge in the US. (When my father and I purchased our first Luger together in the mid-1950's, finding a box of 9mm Luger cartridges was not easy!)

I'll have to do a little research in my various reference books but 1050 FPS seems about 200 FPS low to me. I believe that the original 9mm Parabellum load was in the 1250 FPS range. I'll get back to you on it once I've had a chance to look into it further. I'm in the office at the moment.

Thor · 07-25-2003, 11:13 AM

Two things concern me here. If he is getting reliable working of the action with the lower load, putting the higher load through it will undoubtably stress the toggles when they strike the cam surfaces of the ears. I would not shoot the hotter load in his gun unless it had a stronger spring. I think each Luger should have a load or too that it likes and fires reliably and doesnt bang the heck out of it. When I get Lugers in to the shop that have a weak spring (I feel it when I open the action) a lot of times the cam surfaces are peened baddly indicating too hot a load was fired for the weak spring that was in it. Harry Dennis sent me a early Luger, with that flat spring that was very weak, the Luger also had a cracked toggle from firing it with the weak spring. I shoot 5.7 grs of Unique behind a 124 FMJ but only in guns that have a spring tension close to factory specs. I also shoot 8.0 grs of blue dot behind a 124 in Artillerys when the first lighter load doesnt function the action with enough ejection power. After I put the hotter load in there with the slower burning powder, they always work like a champ. I DONT recomment this load for Artillerys that have had their main spring weaken to function with the standard American Loadings, that would be a big mistake.

Sieger · 07-25-2003, 05:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Doubs:
Bob, I've used 6.0 grains of Unique for many years without a problem and it's always been a good load in my Lugers.

I'll have to do a little research in my various reference books but 1050 FPS seems about 200 FPS low to me. I believe that the original 9mm Parabellum load was in the 1250 FPS range. I'll get back to you on it once I've had a chance to look into it further. I'm in the office at the moment.<hr /></blockquote>Dear Doubs:

I really want to thank you for your interest in this subject!

There seems to be quite a variety of answers regarding the original DWM military load. I'll double check my original German reference materials and get back with some quotes for you.

I can remember 1073 fps with a 123 gr. bullet as the actual figure quoted in one German source.

I'd like to shoot a little hotter load, if it would provide excellent accuracy as will as function.

Thor is right here. The recoil spring is the key to the load for a Luger, as the toggle parts are so light that they are almost insignificant in weight and mass.

Thanks again!

Bob

Sieger · 07-25-2003, 05:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thor:


I shoot 5.7 grs of Unique behind a 124 FMJ but only in guns that have a spring tension close to factory specs.<hr /></blockquote>Hey Thor:

Thanks a million for your response!!

You raise some interesting points that show your years of practical experience with these fine pistols.

My questions to you, and they are very technical ones:

What were the original factory specs on the coil recoil springs of the early DWM (100mm barrel)pistols?

What were they on the later production Mauser P-08s?

The Interarms' Mausers produced in the '70s had yet different weight springs, and quite heavy ones at that.

Are these actual weights currently available
(from Wolff for instance)?

By changing springs, can one expect an original lightly springed Luger to function properly with the hotter loads? For instance, if you were to develope a maximum load for a Luger and tailor a proper weight spring to handle the load, would this "work"?

Thanks

Bob

Doubs · 07-26-2003, 04:38 PM

Fellows, I did a little research on the 9mm cartridge in my Luger books. They don't have a great deal of information to give on the cartridge specs.

Anyway, the bottom line seems to be that the "original" 9mm cartridge gave velocities from about 1033 - 1197 FPS, depending upon barrel length and the powder charge. (Walters, "The Luger Story"). The figure of 1250 FPS that I used yesterday comes from Fred Datig's book "The Luger Pistol". Most of the Luger books are light on specifics about the 9mm cartridge and that could be because there have been so many different loadings and special purpose cartridges that it's a lengthy subject in itself.

I also second Thor's comments about recoil springs. IF you are going to shoot your Luger a lot, make sure your spring is up to the task. Wolff Springs offers a "3-pack" of Luger recoil springs rated at 36, 38 (factory) and 40 pounds. Get one and save your Luger from a beating.

Thor's comments concerning collector guns is also in agreement with my general feelings. I do not shoot my collector pieces (with a couple of notable exceptions - a 90% Artillery has had a couple of mags through it, as has a 90% 1906 AE) and have several mis-matched "shooters" that satisfy my need to enjoy a Luger session at the range. My "shooters" all have new Wolff springs.

07-23-2003, 10:03 PM	#1
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Best Powder for Accuracy in 9MM? Dear Luger friends: I have had great experience with Bullseye powder in both of my 9MM Lugers (4 inch barrels). Both reliability and accuracy have been excellent. Please let me know the powders that have given you the best accuracy and reliability in your 9MMs. Bob

07-23-2003, 10:44 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Unique in the 4" barrels, Blue dot in the 8" barrels. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-24-2003, 12:42 AM	#5
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Bob; 6gr of Unique in ALL Barrels. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-25-2003, 12:37 AM	#8
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Bob; maybe you don"t load enough Unique to get an accurate load? Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-25-2003, 09:22 AM	#9
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman: <strong>Bob; maybe you don"t load enough Unique to get an accurate load? Lonnie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Lonnie: The commercial reloading manuals are all over the place with maximum loads for the 9mm Luger. For the 125 gr. bullet, Hornady says a maximum of 5.1 grs. of Unique, Speer a maximum of 5.9 grs. My Lugers have always been the most accurate with loads that just reliability work the action. The original German text manuals for the Pistole Parabellum site a 1050 fps load for the 4 inch (100 mm) barrel. Loads crafted around the original parameters have always functioned the best and yielded the tightest groups for me. What has been your experience with the higher pressure loads as far as accuracy and reliability go? Bob

07-23-2003, 11:29 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	Both AA#7 and WW-571 work well and meter beautifully. Both give good accuracy but AA#7 tends to leave too much residue to suit me. If you can ever find it, there's a French powder called BA-9 that was formulated especially for the 9mm and is hands-down the best powder I've ever used in the Parabellum. It's imported to the US but no one locally carries it and the haz-mat charges make it too expensive to order in small quantities. I don't recall the manufacturer's name at the moment.

07-23-2003, 11:50 PM	#4
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Bob, I will generally use "Unique". However, since commercial ammo is so plentiful and nearly as cheap as hand loads, I don't load much 9mm anymore.

07-24-2003, 11:06 AM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	Frank & Lonnie are both correct; Unique is an excellent powder and 6.0 grains behind either the 115 or 125 grain bullet. My only complaint about Unique is that it doesn't meter well at all and weighing each load becomes tedious after awhile. Still, it's available everywhere and works the Luger action quite nicely.

07-24-2003, 11:48 PM	#7
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Dear Doubs: Yes, I've used Unique before, but not with the accuracy I have obtained with Bullseye. Also, for me, Unique leaves too much soot in the action and barrel. A load of 4.8 grs of Unique is very adequate in both my DWM and BYF. I can't imagine loading 6.0 grs. in either of them. Bob

07-25-2003, 11:00 AM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	Bob, I've used 6.0 grains of Unique for many years without a problem and it's always been a good load in my Lugers. However, if 4.8 grains works in your pistols and you are satisfied, that's all that really matters. 9mm in the US has traditionally been under loaded, especially when used in the Luger. My choice of 6.0 grains of Unique isn't my own idea.... I believe it was first written up by Maj. George Nonte who liked the 9mm at a time when it was a pretty moribund cartridge in the US. (When my father and I purchased our first Luger together in the mid-1950's, finding a box of 9mm Luger cartridges was not easy!) I'll have to do a little research in my various reference books but 1050 FPS seems about 200 FPS low to me. I believe that the original 9mm Parabellum load was in the 1250 FPS range. I'll get back to you on it once I've had a chance to look into it further. I'm in the office at the moment.

07-25-2003, 11:13 AM	#11
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Two things concern me here. If he is getting reliable working of the action with the lower load, putting the higher load through it will undoubtably stress the toggles when they strike the cam surfaces of the ears. I would not shoot the hotter load in his gun unless it had a stronger spring. I think each Luger should have a load or too that it likes and fires reliably and doesnt bang the heck out of it. When I get Lugers in to the shop that have a weak spring (I feel it when I open the action) a lot of times the cam surfaces are peened baddly indicating too hot a load was fired for the weak spring that was in it. Harry Dennis sent me a early Luger, with that flat spring that was very weak, the Luger also had a cracked toggle from firing it with the weak spring. I shoot 5.7 grs of Unique behind a 124 FMJ but only in guns that have a spring tension close to factory specs. I also shoot 8.0 grs of blue dot behind a 124 in Artillerys when the first lighter load doesnt function the action with enough ejection power. After I put the hotter load in there with the slower burning powder, they always work like a champ. I DONT recomment this load for Artillerys that have had their main spring weaken to function with the standard American Loadings, that would be a big mistake. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-25-2003, 05:35 PM	#12
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Doubs: <strong>Bob, I've used 6.0 grains of Unique for many years without a problem and it's always been a good load in my Lugers. I'll have to do a little research in my various reference books but 1050 FPS seems about 200 FPS low to me. I believe that the original 9mm Parabellum load was in the 1250 FPS range. I'll get back to you on it once I've had a chance to look into it further. I'm in the office at the moment.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Doubs: I really want to thank you for your interest in this subject! There seems to be quite a variety of answers regarding the original DWM military load. I'll double check my original German reference materials and get back with some quotes for you. I can remember 1073 fps with a 123 gr. bullet as the actual figure quoted in one German source. I'd like to shoot a little hotter load, if it would provide excellent accuracy as will as function. Thor is right here. The recoil spring is the key to the load for a Luger, as the toggle parts are so light that they are almost insignificant in weight and mass. Thanks again! Bob

07-25-2003, 05:57 PM	#13
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Thor: <strong> I shoot 5.7 grs of Unique behind a 124 FMJ but only in guns that have a spring tension close to factory specs.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hey Thor: Thanks a million for your response!! You raise some interesting points that show your years of practical experience with these fine pistols. My questions to you, and they are very technical ones: What were the original factory specs on the coil recoil springs of the early DWM (100mm barrel)pistols? What were they on the later production Mauser P-08s? The Interarms' Mausers produced in the '70s had yet different weight springs, and quite heavy ones at that. Are these actual weights currently available (from Wolff for instance)? By changing springs, can one expect an original lightly springed Luger to function properly with the hotter loads? For instance, if you were to develope a maximum load for a Luger and tailor a proper weight spring to handle the load, would this "work"? Thanks Bob

07-26-2003, 04:38 PM	#14
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	Fellows, I did a little research on the 9mm cartridge in my Luger books. They don't have a great deal of information to give on the cartridge specs. Anyway, the bottom line seems to be that the "original" 9mm cartridge gave velocities from about 1033 - 1197 FPS, depending upon barrel length and the powder charge. (Walters, "The Luger Story"). The figure of 1250 FPS that I used yesterday comes from Fred Datig's book "The Luger Pistol". Most of the Luger books are light on specifics about the 9mm cartridge and that could be because there have been so many different loadings and special purpose cartridges that it's a lengthy subject in itself. I also second Thor's comments about recoil springs. IF you are going to shoot your Luger a lot, make sure your spring is up to the task. Wolff Springs offers a "3-pack" of Luger recoil springs rated at 36, 38 (factory) and 40 pounds. Get one and save your Luger from a beating. Thor's comments concerning collector guns is also in agreement with my general feelings. I do not shoot my collector pieces (with a couple of notable exceptions - a 90% Artillery has had a couple of mags through it, as has a 90% 1906 AE) and have several mis-matched "shooters" that satisfy my need to enjoy a Luger session at the range. My "shooters" all have new Wolff springs.