un-dentified 9mm ammo

[wolf]

good after noon , i have a hand full of un-dentified 9mm ammo , type 1 .
VPT 44
and type 2.
MM 6 41.
what do i have here and is it corrosive ?
e post a reply , many thanks wolf

[Luke]

Hello Wolf,

I have some of this (VPT 42, VPT43, VPT44)Finnish ammunition also. I wrote to the manufacturer, Lapua, in Finland and received the following:

=============================================================
"Luke,

This is old surplus ammunition sold by Finnish Army to Interarms who is
apparently stamped english markings on box. It is difficult to say what
kind of ammunition this is according information you gave. However, it is
highly possible that is SMG ammunition as it was manufactured in large
quantities during WWII. The 9x19 mm ammunition intentented for the Suomi
M31 SMG features a 8 g (123 grs) bullet and has muzzle velocity of c. 400
m/s (1312 fps) and is not recommended to use with Luger type pistols as
this may broke the gun. Nomination "Parabellum" does not mean that it is
intented for Parabellum or Luger pistols exclusively as 9 mm Luger
cartridge was at that time commonly known as the 9 mm Parabellum.

Best regards,

Janne Pohjoispaa
Nammo Lapua R & D"

=============================================================

Presume that SMG means sub-machine gun.
In my original email I had provided Lapua with all the information I had, so I did not follow-up on this communication except to thank the writer.

Regards,
Luke

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Luke, my VPT came in the original 16 round box, and they told me it was made especially forP.08, and had a MV of 1045 FPS
Lonnie

[Luke]

Hello Lonnie,

From what you say, I presume that you emailed Lapua directly and that you probably received a reply from a person other than Janne Pohjoispaa?

Since mine was repackaged for retail sales, probably in the 70s, by Interarms, I had less information to give them.

I don't plan to fire this ammunition anyway, but it is an interesting curiosity.

Regards,
Luke

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Luke; the only name I remember from Finland was a fellow named Turja. I do remember it would hold the toggle of my 1916 Erfurt open when the Winchester wouldn"t. This was in the mid 70"s.
Lonnie

[Lugerdoc]

Luke, The MM6/41 is WW2 Canadian SMG ammo. I received a couple of 36 round boxes of this back in 1959 from Ye Ole Hunter (Interarms) with my first luger purchase. Price then was $5 per 100rds. Tom H.

[Ron Wood]

Sage advice Terry (not the wurlitzer in the nostril bit, but the not shooting SMG ammo in a Luger). You may well have saved someone a vital appendage.
By the way, thank you for the excellent glossary of German technical terms under another posting. Once upon a time I had a fair acquaintance with the language but now appreciate assistance with the infrequently encountered terms.

[unspellable]

British Proof to 13.5 tons per square inch comes to quite a bit more than 30240 lbf/in^2 cup as the methods of measurement are very different. The cup method formerly used in the US consistently yields much higher pressures than the British Proof method for the same load.

The British Proof method consisted of placing a lightly oiled cartridge in the test chamber and placing a crusher behind the breech piece, essentially measuring the force the rear of the cartridge exerts on the breech face and then calculating it in terms of tons per square inch.

The American CUP method used a copper crusher behind a small piston inserted in a hole in the chamber wall, measuring the force with which the charge would blow a small plug out of the side of the cartridge. Yields larger numbers than the British method for the same load.

Currently in the US we use the PSI method with an electronic transducer more directly measuring the pressure. It reacts mush faster so that a curve is obtained rather than just the total effect on a crusher. This method typically yields even higher numbers han the cup method.

In short 13.5 tons British Proof doesn't sound like so much but it's really one damn hot load! I'd bet good money it would run over 35,000 cup and over 40,000 transducer in a flash and then some. Of course this is the proof load for the STEN, not the working load.

tacfoley, how long is the barrel on your STEN?

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

Some years ago Lee Jurras tested various 9mm ammo to see if
so called submachine gun ammo was too hot for handguns. His
conclusion, No... It is a lot to type, but here are the results
of his test. Notice the variations in bullet diameter...

Origin & Date Headstamp Weight/ Avg. (CUP) Avg.
-------------------------Diameter Pressure Velocity

Canadian 1945 MM 45 115/.3555 32500 1316
Yugoslavia 1962 PPU 62 121/.3550 26900 1210
Finland 1944 VPT 44 115/.3543 25200 1146
USA 1969 9mm Luger 115/.3547 24800 1198
Belgian 1942 CH 42 98/.3548 30200 1387
USA WWII WRA 9mm 115/.3547 32300 1320
Germany 1943 dov 43 32 98/.3545 31800 1401
Sweden Norma 9mm 115/.3552 31900 1252
England 1953 K 53 115/.3540 29400 1244

USA 1970 S&W/F 9mm 100/.3550 32100 1433
USA 1971 Super Vel 90/.3545 31000 1415
USA 1971 Super Vel 112/.3545 31700 1349

A quote from the article...

"Research indicates that neither Canada nor Germany ever issued
any warning against the use of any standard 9mm ammunition in pistols.
This assumes ever greater significance when we consider that during
and after the war Germany used unlocked Astra M600 pistols. Apparently
German ordance felt all their 9mm ammunition was safe, even for use in
the blowback Astra."

[unspellable]

I have always suspected something like Johnny's quote, all the apocryphal stories not withstanding. Having two different loads that will chamber in the same gun would create a logistics nightmare that no military organization in its right mind would want to contend with.

If you have a SMG load that is too hot for the pistol, there will always be some damn fool using it in the pistol, no matter how many warnings to the contrary.

What's the point of a hot SMG load? Easy to design the SMG to operate on the standard pistol load and the usual bugaboo with a SMG is keeping the recoil within reason so that you will be shooting at the opposing troops rather than your own aircraft. The second design problem is keping the cyclic rate within reason, and here a milder load helps also, as a hot load will cycle the action all the faster.

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

In the article, Winchester was given as an example. Their ammo
was too weak for submachine gun usage, and considered almost
too weak for some handguns. So they upped the performance and
labeled the boxes "For Submachine Gun", but they didn't specify
for that use only, but many interpeted it as meaning just that...