1918 dated Holsters , Questions...

kidvett · 12-20-2003, 10:28 PM

Hello to all,

It is a long time since I last posted on the LF....been quite busy, sick & did a bit of shopping. I acquired these 2 1918 Holsters. The brown one shows what I think is a Bavarian III Corps faint marking on the back. It looks like a Crown with Roman number 3 ( III ) under. I'm not sure and would appreciate help on ID...

Here are the Maker markings on this one.

The second 1918 Holster is a real nice one but I'm puzzled

by this L.Z.A. Berlin marking right on top on the pull strap. I really need help on this one as it' the first time I'm seeing this marking...

Now is the Makers mark on the inside of the flap ( like the previous holster )

Also of interest is when they dyed this holster. The pull strap was only dyed on the outside end...

Many thanks to all...

MARK

Posted too long ago...forgot how to place PICS correctly...sorry...

kidvett · 12-23-2003, 12:43 AM

SORRY TO ASK,

BUT I REALLY NEED SOME HELP ON THOSE MARKINGS

MANY MANY THANKS !!!

MARC

John Sabato · 12-23-2003, 12:08 PM

I am fairly certain that the Crown III is the Bavarian Third Corps as you have mentioned. The knowledge comes from previous posts on this subject since the forum changed to this format. I am sure that if you search the holster forum for "Bavaria" you will probably find at least one similar question and an authoritative answer Marc.

RockinWR · 12-23-2003, 08:04 PM

Mark,
* The following information comes from J. Walter, The Luger Book, Pg.157, Item L67 & an AutoMag article by Jim Cates & Martin Krause. I'll paraphrase for brevity.
* L.Z.A.=Leder-Zuweisungs-Amt. Loosely translated as a leather supply office.
* "The LZA was established in 1914 for handling contract orders for the Army to commercial manufacturers (small saddlers) of leather goods(in contrast to the army owned & operated workshops like the AWM artillery workshop in Munich, etc.)".
* Berlin was the headquarters of the LZA.
* It is not confirmed yet; but, every BA district depot probably had one LZA/LZASt(Stell) office. The "BA" offices were to procure equipment and to supply the equipment to the troops. "The task of the LZA was to control the leather goods production. A number of LZA subordinate authorities or branches(for inspection) were located throughout Germany".
* The eagle is a Prussian eagle as opposed to an Imperial eagle and is clasping a sheath of thunderbolts.(Sounds like Thor's predicessor?).
* Whether the leather was finished & pre-cut is debatable, though some holsters have been found with the marking partially covered by the closing strap.
* Appears your PT example was controlled from the main office of the LZA; but, I'm unsure of the lower case letter "b" which follows the Berlin city location. My supposition is the "b" section.
* Trust this helps.

Merry Christmas all & a Happy/Prosperous New Year!
Bob

Dwight Gruber · 12-23-2003, 11:27 PM

Mark,

I recently queried about the Crown/III on another Forum, it was understood to be an Imperial mark, but it is not universally agreed to be Bavarian, and its meaning is ultimately obscure.

--Dwight

kidvett · 12-23-2003, 11:38 PM

Many thanks !!

John, I did a search on Bavaria and you were absolutely right ! Holster is from the Bavarian III Corps and is so marked... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Bob, very precise information & I thank you very much ! The only book I have by Walther is ``The Luger Story `` and I could not find any info on that L.Z.A. in my books & documents. Knowing the signification of this adds a little bit to that nice holster ( PIC )

MARK

kidvett · 12-23-2003, 11:43 PM

Dwight,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ......so I guess I'm still in uncertainity as to exactly what are those markings on this brown 1918 dated holster......

MARK

Ron Wood · 12-24-2003, 12:21 AM

With an acknowledged bow to the expertise of another forum's membership, pending evidence to the contrary, I would still side with the identification of 3rd Bavarian Corps.

12-20-2003, 10:28 PM	#1
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	1918 dated Holsters , Questions... Hello to all, It is a long time since I last posted on the LF....been quite busy, sick & did a bit of shopping. I acquired these 2 1918 Holsters. The brown one shows what I think is a Bavarian III Corps faint marking on the back. It looks like a Crown with Roman number 3 ( III ) under. I'm not sure and would appreciate help on ID... Here are the Maker markings on this one. The second 1918 Holster is a real nice one but I'm puzzled by this L.Z.A. Berlin marking right on top on the pull strap. I really need help on this one as it' the first time I'm seeing this marking... Now is the Makers mark on the inside of the flap ( like the previous holster ) Also of interest is when they dyed this holster. The pull strap was only dyed on the outside end... Many thanks to all... MARK Posted too long ago...forgot how to place PICS correctly...sorry...

12-23-2003, 12:08 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I am fairly certain that the Crown III is the Bavarian Third Corps as you have mentioned. The knowledge comes from previous posts on this subject since the forum changed to this format. I am sure that if you search the holster forum for "Bavaria" you will probably find at least one similar question and an authoritative answer Marc. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-24-2003, 12:21 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	With an acknowledged bow to the expertise of another forum's membership, pending evidence to the contrary, I would still side with the identification of 3rd Bavarian Corps. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-23-2003, 12:43 AM	#2
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	SORRY TO ASK, BUT I REALLY NEED SOME HELP ON THOSE MARKINGS MANY MANY THANKS !!! MARC

12-23-2003, 08:04 PM	#4
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Mark, * The following information comes from J. Walter, The Luger Book, Pg.157, Item L67 & an AutoMag article by Jim Cates & Martin Krause. I'll paraphrase for brevity. * L.Z.A.=Leder-Zuweisungs-Amt. Loosely translated as a leather supply office. * "The LZA was established in 1914 for handling contract orders for the Army to commercial manufacturers (small saddlers) of leather goods(in contrast to the army owned & operated workshops like the AWM artillery workshop in Munich, etc.)". * Berlin was the headquarters of the LZA. * It is not confirmed yet; but, every BA district depot probably had one LZA/LZASt(Stell) office. The "BA" offices were to procure equipment and to supply the equipment to the troops. "The task of the LZA was to control the leather goods production. A number of LZA subordinate authorities or branches(for inspection) were located throughout Germany". * The eagle is a Prussian eagle as opposed to an Imperial eagle and is clasping a sheath of thunderbolts.(Sounds like Thor's predicessor?). * Whether the leather was finished & pre-cut is debatable, though some holsters have been found with the marking partially covered by the closing strap. * Appears your PT example was controlled from the main office of the LZA; but, I'm unsure of the lower case letter "b" which follows the Berlin city location. My supposition is the "b" section. * Trust this helps. Merry Christmas all & a Happy/Prosperous New Year! Bob

12-23-2003, 11:27 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,312 Times in 430 Posts	Mark, I recently queried about the Crown/III on another Forum, it was understood to be an Imperial mark, but it is not universally agreed to be Bavarian, and its meaning is ultimately obscure. --Dwight

12-23-2003, 11:38 PM	#6
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Many thanks !! John, I did a search on Bavaria and you were absolutely right ! Holster is from the Bavarian III Corps and is so marked... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Bob, very precise information & I thank you very much ! The only book I have by Walther is ``The Luger Story `` and I could not find any info on that L.Z.A. in my books & documents. Knowing the signification of this adds a little bit to that nice holster ( PIC ) MARK

12-23-2003, 11:43 PM	#7
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Dwight, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ......so I guess I'm still in uncertainity as to exactly what are those markings on this brown 1918 dated holster...... MARK