Ideal Stock/Holster

Brew_Ha_Ha · 03-24-2003, 12:12 AM

Anyone know of a reproduction ideal stock/holster?
If so, do these fit every P.08?

ViggoG · 03-24-2003, 02:17 AM

Nick, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Yes There is a reproduction ideal stock/holster.
See MEMBER GALLERY, "A One-of-a-Kind Luger Accessory". I am The Culprit ! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
And Yes It will Probably fit a any P-08, Were I foolish enough to attach it thereto, and Expose myself to a Ten Year, Ten Thousand dollar penalty for Violation of the Short Barreled Rifle Provision of The Federal Firearms Act. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
WHICH I AM NOT GOING TO DO !!!!! <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" />
This type of Holster Stock is only legal to attach to 1900 and 1906 American Eagle Lugers and one other pistol which is a type that is called Hi Power (something or another??? I cannot recall, I think its a Revolver)
And any Reproduction must meet the requirement that they are of similar dimension and appearance.
Only certain models of the Navy and Artillery Lugers are legal when attached to a proper matching stock or reproduction that must meet the requirement that they are of similar dimension and appearance.
<img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
And Insanity Is Neither an Excuse Or Defense !!!
<img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
ViggoG

Lugerdoc · 03-24-2003, 09:44 AM

Viggo & BHH, The Ideal company also made similar style stocks in the 19xx (teens) for some Colt and SW revolvers, so don't ASSuMe that any Ideal stock will fit the luger, as the attaching iron part is different. I doubt than any repro, including Viggo's, would be considered legal by the BATF without a letter from them. Tom H.

John Sabato · 03-24-2003, 11:35 AM

Lugerdoc,

We have a "sanitized" letter at this URL in our General Information link on the Lugerforum homepage that is a reply by the ATF to an inquiry about just such reproductions...

According to this letter, a "original" luger (i.e., a Luger for which a stock was originally produced and would be exempted from the NFA if used with an original stock) is used with a reproduction stock that closely approximates the original stock is legal...

Here is the URL:

BATF Letter on the use of reproduction shourlder stocks with Lugers

and here is the pertinent text from the letter for those who don't want to leave this message thread...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Our Firearms Classification Panel has examined your request and is their opinion that the above mentioned pistols equipped with currently made reproduction shoulder stocks which either duplicate or closely approximate the dimensions and configuration of the original stocks would also be primarily of interest to collectors and not likely be used as weapons. Therefore, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock.

It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, the combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA. <hr /></blockquote>

Big Norm · 03-24-2003, 01:13 PM

The Ideal Stock/holster will not fit ANY Luger without special iron plates that fit under special wood grips. These plates will screw to the Luger using the conventional grip screw holes on Lugers. The special wood grips, that are required, are then screwed into these plates using other screw holes that are in the plates. I assume that the wood grips are thinner the accomodate the additional thickness created by the iron plates and to make the Luger more comfortable to hold. The screws required to hold the wood grips onto the petal plates are also smaller and have a flat head.

The Ideal Stock/holster is quite useless without the metal plate and its accompaning wood grips.

I have never tried putting the grips any other Luger other than a 1900-06 not only because they would not be appropriate but also because the dang things are not comfortable to squeeze unto my shoulder without padding. The conventional wood stocks are much more comfortable on Lugers that have stock lugs.

John,
I have to correct myself on a previous discussion with you regarding ViggoG's reproduction. I stated that the stock did not look original because there was not a flair on the sides where the gun slides into the holster. I was wrong. After reviewing photos of Ideal Stocks/holsters I realized that this was a misviewing of photograghs which make this area look flat from the side. I would have to see the end of the holster/metal stock (where the Luger is put into the holster) before I can say anything about the flair. Mucho sorry.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 03-24-2003, 03:10 PM

no problem Norm... the day that passes where I don't make a mistake hasn't happened yet...

I have an elderly uncle who once told me (as a very young kid) that he "may have a lot of faults, but making mistakes isn't one of them"

another time he told me that he thought that he had made a mistake once but he was wrong

...a couple of funny lines that I have never forgotten.

The only fault I see in your statement is this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The Ideal Stock/holster is quite useless without the metal plate and its accompaning wood grips. <hr /></blockquote>I would have to submit in response that its usefulness is easily measured on eBAY... if you have owned one for many years, it would likely be worth many times what you paid for it... don't you agree?

wish I had one...(sigh!) and a model 1900 to go with it!

ViggoG · 03-25-2003, 12:18 AM

Big Norm,
A One-of-a-Kind Luger Accessory, Page 2, Photo 2 clearly shows the open end of both Original and Reproduction Ideal Shoulder Stock/Holster.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...d/Page_2_2.jpg

It is to be noted that there is no flair to the lips of the "Original Ideal Holster" at least in the model which I modeled my "Repro" after.
Perhaps others may have curved the entering lips to prevent the rivet from scarring their wooden Grips. (A matter which I have corrected otherwise)
I have carefully attempted to follow the Federal Guidelines and yet not make a "Fraud Like Repro" <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" />
ViggoG

Brew_Ha_Ha · 03-25-2003, 12:43 AM

So...I'm hearing two answers-there is a reproduction stock there, and it will/will not fit. I just want one to go onto my Luger as display; to take take to the range.

Dwight Gruber · 03-25-2003, 01:38 AM

Brewhaha, lets try this:

There is -one- (1 count'em, 1) reproduction Ideal stock holster. (It is hand-crafted, and in the posession of its maker.)

In order to be attached to a Luger, an Ideal stock holster (reproduction or original) requires special grips.

It may -legally- be attached to a 1900-model Luger. I have seen pictures of a 1902-model with Ideal grips, so my guess is that that model would be legal to attach. I'm not sure about the 1906 model. It would be necessary to research the 1902 and 06, or write BATF, to find out.

Attaching this stock, reproduction or original, to -any other Luger- violates Federal law and will cost you prison time and money that you really would rather use for something else.

--Dwight

ViggoG · 03-25-2003, 02:39 AM

To Reinforce Dwight's Reply above,
Quote___________________________________________

And Yes It will Probably fit a any P-08, Were I foolish enough to attach it thereto, and Expose myself to a Ten Year, Ten Thousand dollar penalty for Violation of the Short Barreled Rifle Provision of The National Firearms Act. (NFA)
________________________________________________

I believe as the only reproducer I can state with authority:
The Grip Adapters are fitted to the particular
model or individual Luger and Many other Models or Pistols could be "Illegally Fitted" to the Ideal Holster with the addition of "Specially made Ideal Type Frame Grips".
Because It can be attached to other pistol in no way implies that to do such is legal !!
PLEASE NOTE THE "WARNING" BELOW IN THIS POST!

"Exempted Guns" Quote;__________________________

Luger, DWM Pistol, Model 1900/1902/1906 in 7.65 Luger or 9mm Parabellum cal., having the American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4", with originqal detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips.
_________________________________________________

The BATF Letter clearly states, Quote:____________

"Therefor, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock."
________________________________________ ND Quote.

Followed With This WARNING !!! Quote;___________

It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, The combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA.
______________________________________ND Quote.

ViggoG

John Sabato · 03-25-2003, 12:10 PM

Thanks Viggo for your detailed answer...

Boils down to NO you can't attach an Ideal stock to "any other Luger" even for a display without violating the National Firearms Act.

ViggoG · 03-26-2003, 12:26 AM

Sorry Folks,
I forgot to add;
These Quotes are taken from these "General Information", Links and URL's.

BATF Letter, on Luger Shoulder Stocks

http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html

and

NFA rules, exempted guns list

http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF2.html

I would Hope that each Interested Party, Click, Print, and Read and Read Again !!!
ViggoG

Big Norm · 03-26-2003, 02:09 AM

ViggoG,
I have 2-3 Ideal stocks/holster/grips and I have seen Jerry Peters rig and they all have a flair where the pistol enters the holster. Please examine "Luger Tips" pg 99 by Reese (excellent pictures) and "The Luger Book" page 138 by John Walter. With the exception on your pictures, I have never seen an Ideal rig without the flair. Of course there are always exceptions to every rule. (Just to cover myself. I can not afford to make two mistakes in the same decade. Hee! Hee!). Of course the first mistake regarding the Ideal rig may not have been a mistake. So I am still good for the last century (Yee Haw!).

John,
the metal plate under the grips is essential because that is what the stock hangs on. If you have a "display only" Ideal stock, then OK. But if you want to hook everything up, then the plate is essential. (See the above mention of Reeses article, pg 98. Unfortuately, no pictures of the metal plates.).

Everyone else,
The special grips have a flat backside so that they fit tight to the flat metal plates. (The flat head screws for the wood grips are quite short to accomodate the thinness of the wood grips). Also the grips could not be screwed to the handle of the later Lugers because there is no lip on the grips for the normal Luger grip screws to hold the grips onto all Lugers. This area was reamed out to commodate the original screws normally used on all Lugers but which on an Ideal rig holds only the metal plates in place.
Lookin Good Big Norm

Big Norm · 03-26-2003, 02:22 AM

John,
this is one of those great discussions that all newbies (and maybe others) should read. As you said, these rigs are expensive on the internet. I would hate to see someone pay big bucks for the stock and holster without the grips and the metal plates, only to be greatly disappointed upon delivery. (BUYER BEWARE!) I know a few people who are sadly searching for just the grips and metal plates to match their stocks/holsters.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 03-26-2003, 11:14 AM

To All,

Let me make some clarifications so no one makes a BIG mistake.

These are photos of both sides of examples of Ideal Grips that as Big Norm has correctly indicated are necessary to attach the ideal stock to a Luger.

Even though you might have possession of the stock, a set of these grips, and any Luger, UNDER FEDERAL LAW IT WOULD BE A CRIMINAL ACT to attach the Ideal stock (using the necessary grips) to any Luger (for any reason including just Display) that is NOT on the ATF C&R list as being exempt from the National Firearms Act, because if the Luger is not on the list it is NOT exempt. It is that simple. I hope that clears up the question...

Big Norm · 03-26-2003, 12:48 PM

John,
nice pictures. Thanks. For the individual who initially posted this thread, while the Ideal grips will fit any Luger, its just not worth the risk. The only satisfaction that you will get while you are sitting in the slammer is that your expensive 100 year old historical artifact will be safe and sound in a police evidence room. The stock is not really comfortable against the shoulder while shooting. The wood stock feels much better.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 03-26-2003, 02:35 PM

...but the wood stock has the same usage limitations... it can only be used with specific Lugers that are identified in the ATF Curio & Relic List. The existence of a stock lug on a Luger does NOT entitle that Luger to use a shoulder stock.

schwob · 05-04-2003, 07:59 PM

Gentlemen, your comments are a joy to my heart. Many thanx, Bob Spitzer (Schwob)

03-24-2003, 12:12 AM	#1
Brew_Ha_Ha User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NC Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ideal Stock/Holster Anyone know of a reproduction ideal stock/holster? If so, do these fit every P.08? __________________ Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.

03-24-2003, 09:44 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Viggo & BHH, The Ideal company also made similar style stocks in the 19xx (teens) for some Colt and SW revolvers, so don't ASSuMe that any Ideal stock will fit the luger, as the attaching iron part is different. I doubt than any repro, including Viggo's, would be considered legal by the BATF without a letter from them. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-24-2003, 11:35 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Lugerdoc, We have a "sanitized" letter at this URL in our General Information link on the Lugerforum homepage that is a reply by the ATF to an inquiry about just such reproductions... According to this letter, a "original" luger (i.e., a Luger for which a stock was originally produced and would be exempted from the NFA if used with an original stock) is used with a reproduction stock that closely approximates the original stock is legal... Here is the URL: BATF Letter on the use of reproduction shourlder stocks with Lugers and here is the pertinent text from the letter for those who don't want to leave this message thread... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Our Firearms Classification Panel has examined your request and is their opinion that the above mentioned pistols equipped with currently made reproduction shoulder stocks which either duplicate or closely approximate the dimensions and configuration of the original stocks would also be primarily of interest to collectors and not likely be used as weapons. Therefore, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock. It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, the combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-24-2003, 03:10 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	no problem Norm... the day that passes where I don't make a mistake hasn't happened yet... I have an elderly uncle who once told me (as a very young kid) that he "may have a lot of faults, but making mistakes isn't one of them" another time he told me that he thought that he had made a mistake once but he was wrong ...a couple of funny lines that I have never forgotten. The only fault I see in your statement is this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> The Ideal Stock/holster is quite useless without the metal plate and its accompaning wood grips. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I would have to submit in response that its usefulness is easily measured on eBAY... if you have owned one for many years, it would likely be worth many times what you paid for it... don't you agree? wish I had one...(sigh!) and a model 1900 to go with it! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-25-2003, 12:43 AM	#8
Brew_Ha_Ha User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NC Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So...I'm hearing two answers-there is a reproduction stock there, and it will/will not fit. I just want one to go onto my Luger as display; to take take to the range. __________________ Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.

03-24-2003, 02:17 AM	#2
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Nick, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Yes There is a reproduction ideal stock/holster. See MEMBER GALLERY, "A One-of-a-Kind Luger Accessory". I am The Culprit ! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> And Yes It will Probably fit a any P-08, Were I foolish enough to attach it thereto, and Expose myself to a Ten Year, Ten Thousand dollar penalty for Violation of the Short Barreled Rifle Provision of The Federal Firearms Act. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> WHICH I AM NOT GOING TO DO !!!!! <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> This type of Holster Stock is only legal to attach to 1900 and 1906 American Eagle Lugers and one other pistol which is a type that is called Hi Power (something or another??? I cannot recall, I think its a Revolver) And any Reproduction must meet the requirement that they are of similar dimension and appearance. Only certain models of the Navy and Artillery Lugers are legal when attached to a proper matching stock or reproduction that must meet the requirement that they are of similar dimension and appearance. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> And Insanity Is Neither an Excuse Or Defense !!! <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> ViggoG

03-24-2003, 01:13 PM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	The Ideal Stock/holster will not fit ANY Luger without special iron plates that fit under special wood grips. These plates will screw to the Luger using the conventional grip screw holes on Lugers. The special wood grips, that are required, are then screwed into these plates using other screw holes that are in the plates. I assume that the wood grips are thinner the accomodate the additional thickness created by the iron plates and to make the Luger more comfortable to hold. The screws required to hold the wood grips onto the petal plates are also smaller and have a flat head. The Ideal Stock/holster is quite useless without the metal plate and its accompaning wood grips. I have never tried putting the grips any other Luger other than a 1900-06 not only because they would not be appropriate but also because the dang things are not comfortable to squeeze unto my shoulder without padding. The conventional wood stocks are much more comfortable on Lugers that have stock lugs. John, I have to correct myself on a previous discussion with you regarding ViggoG's reproduction. I stated that the stock did not look original because there was not a flair on the sides where the gun slides into the holster. I was wrong. After reviewing photos of Ideal Stocks/holsters I realized that this was a misviewing of photograghs which make this area look flat from the side. I would have to see the end of the holster/metal stock (where the Luger is put into the holster) before I can say anything about the flair. Mucho sorry. Big Norm

03-25-2003, 12:18 AM	#7
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Big Norm, A One-of-a-Kind Luger Accessory, Page 2, Photo 2 clearly shows the open end of both Original and Reproduction Ideal Shoulder Stock/Holster. http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb...d/Page_2_2.jpg It is to be noted that there is no flair to the lips of the "Original Ideal Holster" at least in the model which I modeled my "Repro" after. Perhaps others may have curved the entering lips to prevent the rivet from scarring their wooden Grips. (A matter which I have corrected otherwise) I have carefully attempted to follow the Federal Guidelines and yet not make a "Fraud Like Repro" <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> ViggoG

03-25-2003, 01:38 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,894 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,291 Times in 426 Posts	Brewhaha, lets try this: There is -one- (1 count'em, 1) reproduction Ideal stock holster. (It is hand-crafted, and in the posession of its maker.) In order to be attached to a Luger, an Ideal stock holster (reproduction or original) requires special grips. It may -legally- be attached to a 1900-model Luger. I have seen pictures of a 1902-model with Ideal grips, so my guess is that that model would be legal to attach. I'm not sure about the 1906 model. It would be necessary to research the 1902 and 06, or write BATF, to find out. Attaching this stock, reproduction or original, to -any other Luger- violates Federal law and will cost you prison time and money that you really would rather use for something else. --Dwight

03-25-2003, 02:39 AM	#10
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	To Reinforce Dwight's Reply above, Quote___________________________________________ And Yes It will Probably fit a any P-08, Were I foolish enough to attach it thereto, and Expose myself to a Ten Year, Ten Thousand dollar penalty for Violation of the Short Barreled Rifle Provision of The National Firearms Act. (NFA) ________________________________________________ I believe as the only reproducer I can state with authority: The Grip Adapters are fitted to the particular model or individual Luger and Many other Models or Pistols could be "Illegally Fitted" to the Ideal Holster with the addition of "Specially made Ideal Type Frame Grips". Because It can be attached to other pistol in no way implies that to do such is legal !! PLEASE NOTE THE "WARNING" BELOW IN THIS POST! "Exempted Guns" Quote;__________________________ Luger, DWM Pistol, Model 1900/1902/1906 in 7.65 Luger or 9mm Parabellum cal., having the American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4", with originqal detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips. _________________________________________________ The BATF Letter clearly states, Quote:____________ "Therefor, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock." ________________________________________ ND Quote. Followed With This WARNING !!! Quote;___________ It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, The combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA. ______________________________________ND Quote. ViggoG

03-25-2003, 12:10 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thanks Viggo for your detailed answer... Boils down to NO you can't attach an Ideal stock to "any other Luger" even for a display without violating the National Firearms Act. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-26-2003, 12:26 AM	#12
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Sorry Folks, I forgot to add; These Quotes are taken from these "General Information", Links and URL's. BATF Letter, on Luger Shoulder Stocks http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html and NFA rules, exempted guns list http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF2.html I would Hope that each Interested Party, Click, Print, and Read and Read Again !!! ViggoG

03-26-2003, 02:09 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	ViggoG, I have 2-3 Ideal stocks/holster/grips and I have seen Jerry Peters rig and they all have a flair where the pistol enters the holster. Please examine "Luger Tips" pg 99 by Reese (excellent pictures) and "The Luger Book" page 138 by John Walter. With the exception on your pictures, I have never seen an Ideal rig without the flair. Of course there are always exceptions to every rule. (Just to cover myself. I can not afford to make two mistakes in the same decade. Hee! Hee!). Of course the first mistake regarding the Ideal rig may not have been a mistake. So I am still good for the last century (Yee Haw!). John, the metal plate under the grips is essential because that is what the stock hangs on. If you have a "display only" Ideal stock, then OK. But if you want to hook everything up, then the plate is essential. (See the above mention of Reeses article, pg 98. Unfortuately, no pictures of the metal plates.). Everyone else, The special grips have a flat backside so that they fit tight to the flat metal plates. (The flat head screws for the wood grips are quite short to accomodate the thinness of the wood grips). Also the grips could not be screwed to the handle of the later Lugers because there is no lip on the grips for the normal Luger grip screws to hold the grips onto all Lugers. This area was reamed out to commodate the original screws normally used on all Lugers but which on an Ideal rig holds only the metal plates in place. Lookin Good Big Norm

03-26-2003, 02:22 AM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, this is one of those great discussions that all newbies (and maybe others) should read. As you said, these rigs are expensive on the internet. I would hate to see someone pay big bucks for the stock and holster without the grips and the metal plates, only to be greatly disappointed upon delivery. (BUYER BEWARE!) I know a few people who are sadly searching for just the grips and metal plates to match their stocks/holsters. Big Norm

03-26-2003, 11:14 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	To All, Let me make some clarifications so no one makes a BIG mistake. These are photos of both sides of examples of Ideal Grips that as Big Norm has correctly indicated are necessary to attach the ideal stock to a Luger. Even though you might have possession of the stock, a set of these grips, and any Luger, UNDER FEDERAL LAW IT WOULD BE A CRIMINAL ACT to attach the Ideal stock (using the necessary grips) to any Luger (for any reason including just Display) that is NOT on the ATF C&R list as being exempt from the National Firearms Act, because if the Luger is not on the list it is NOT exempt. It is that simple. I hope that clears up the question... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-26-2003, 12:48 PM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, nice pictures. Thanks. For the individual who initially posted this thread, while the Ideal grips will fit any Luger, its just not worth the risk. The only satisfaction that you will get while you are sitting in the slammer is that your expensive 100 year old historical artifact will be safe and sound in a police evidence room. The stock is not really comfortable against the shoulder while shooting. The wood stock feels much better. Big Norm

03-26-2003, 02:35 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	...but the wood stock has the same usage limitations... it can only be used with specific Lugers that are identified in the ATF Curio & Relic List. The existence of a stock lug on a Luger does NOT entitle that Luger to use a shoulder stock. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-04-2003, 07:59 PM	#18
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gentlemen, your comments are a joy to my heart. Many thanx, Bob Spitzer (Schwob)