First Issue Unaltered SN 130

Navy · 10-03-2002, 03:05 PM

This piece was discovered at the MAX show.

Detailed description follows.

Standard 6" barrel with right side of front sight block evidencing scattered light pitting and metal erosion. Finish here is worn through in a few places. Remainder of right side of barrel is unremarkable. Even, antique blue finish with the odd pin-point pit here and there. Surface oxidation is visible eliminating need for semi-chrome test.Rear barrel proof is crisply struck and an exact duplicate of the one on the receiver.

Frame rail evidences scattered light pitting and some white metal on corners. Takedown lever shows traces of strawand is properly marked in the commercial style.Two crown M proofs are present; the aft one showing the effects of a some minor corrosion inside the crown. Both proofs are crisp and under the bluing.

Sideplate shows small pitted streak starting at upper third leading edge of the island and continues down to the bottom edge of the sideplate, ending at serial number stamp. Apparently there was some metalurgical problem with this piece to result in such a scar. Under the loupe, it is clearly a long slender pit; to the naked eye, it appears to be a deep scratch. The trigger retains slight cast of strawing, magazine release is unremarkable. Grips are tightly checkered old-style DWM in exc condition but have shrunk slightly causing a less than fully snug fit. Probable cause: storage in lighted case or heated area dehumidifying the wood.

Side panel is unremarkable, rear safety shows traces of straw and is clearly of the First Issue variety with the GESICHERT well struck ABOVE the safety lever and a band of narrow milled white metal beneath.

Bottom examination reveals Crown M and SN struck in the proper place. The Crown M is struck lighter than elsewhere and the left upright of the M is somewhat faint. It is present, but clearly the 'smith did not apply a uniform blow. Such inconsistencies are handmade craftsmanship.

Forward frame reveals SN struck clearly without alphabetic suffix and uniform wear to finish across exterior surface of frame, trigger guard and forward grip strap.Magazine well is unremarkable.

Aft grip strap and grip safety show uniform darkening of finish to blue-brownish and dispersed clusters of microscopic pitting. Surface oxidation is present. The strap is property marked W.K.8536 and the last digit is not properly aligned/centered. Also, the property mark reveals a uniform oxidation inside the stamping and a very slight halo around the exterior of each individual strike. Toggle rear is properly serialed. Top of frame, toggle and rear sight are as expected. Left side exterior reveals nothing out of the ordinary.

Disassembly reveals the cannon lug to be properly serialed and the presence of brown stains from grease on cannon rails. Bolt is serialed as is underside of toggle. Toggle axel has flange on left shank and is fire blued.Trigger SN matches.

Pop the left grip and note presence of pitting and oxidation at wood/metal contact points. Mainspring shows reddish discoloration. Pop right grip, more of same, except some old dried crud comes out of grip screw hole. Probably dried grease.Inside of frame shows oxidation on polished white metal and more of the brown staining. Smell reveals no odor of anything except old gun grease. Bore is dirty and has some visible pitting/darkening. Should clean to VG (+) with some elbow grease. Both grip panels are SN and have what appears to be the so called Flaming Bomb abeam the SN. Have not encountered this before.Both grip screws are uniformly faded fire blue with no wear to slots.

Conclusion: An unmessed with First Issue Unaltered that saw service and has the scars to prove it.

Other Photographs of this 1906 1st Issue Unaltered Navy Luger can be seen in the Member Gallery that is linked from the Lugerforum homepage:

Lugerforum Homepage

Tom A. [img]smile.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 10-03-2002, 03:42 PM

The Album of photographs for Tom Armstrong's 1906 Navy has been posted in the Member Gallery...

Edward Tinker · 10-03-2002, 04:04 PM

Very nice description, especially nice photos Tom!

My digital doesn't take close pictures worth a darn.

Guess we won't go out shooting with her will we, [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Heinz · 10-03-2002, 07:10 PM

Wow!

Out there with that lantern searching for an honest man and you found it. Good for you!

Imperial Arms · 10-03-2002, 08:13 PM

Tom,

A very fine and respectible First Issue Navy Luger! I especially like the details of authenticity such as: the mill marks on the back of the frame; the slight patina on various areas of the pistol; and the nice consistent straw showing the fine machining 'grain'.

Congratulations on the low serial number which is a great find indeed!

Great hunting,
Albert

Imperial Arms

Jan C Still · 10-04-2002, 06:35 PM

drbuster · 10-04-2002, 09:04 PM

Jan, according to the references you quoted and re-inspection of my first issue altered Navy, you are indeed CORRECT! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Ron Wood · 10-04-2002, 10:20 PM

Jan,
Now that you have opened Pandora's Box, I have a couple of questions. This is the first time I have seen a First Issue Altered that has the safety marking "GESICHERT" rather than "Gesichert" (Upper and lower case letters). Does anyone else have an all upper case safety marking on a 1st Issue Altered? Also, in the photos I could not discern any "halo" on the barrel markings. Could this be attributed to refinishing during the alteration, or the resolution of the photos?

Navy · 10-04-2002, 11:29 PM

I stand redfaced corrected; somehow the "blinding flash of the obvious" eluded me. But then again, it has ben said that I could be outwitted by sheep...

A chagrinned,
Tom A.
PS..Its still a damn nice pistol!

Ron Wood · 10-05-2002, 12:00 AM

Tom,
Don't be too chagrinned...been there, done that. The thrill of discovery has blinded more than one collector. And, yes, its still a damn nice pistol!

Jan C Still · 10-05-2002, 12:21 AM

Lugers down under · 10-05-2002, 03:27 AM

Tom A,
This is a remarkable coincidence but last Sunday, the 29th September I purchased the exact same model gun at an auction here in Auckland , New Zealand.
First issue altered model Navy as below

The gun was complete with its Danish made Holster which has the Royal Danish Crown stamps inside the flap.
The gun is serial number 470 with no sufix.
It is all matching numbers including the Mag which has concentric rings and large numbers along with the Crown over M.

The gun retains about 95% original blue and most of the lesser parts retain much of thier original straw.
It has the word GESICHERT in capitals and has the slot milled under the safety lever.
It is unit Marked W.K. 94 just below the grip safty.
Apparently, this gun was reissued during the occupation of Denmark and used by the Danish Wharf police. The holster was made in Denmark.
It was one of twelve similar lots found in a Copenhagen bank safe after the war.
The gun is very much in the exact same condition as the one Tom A has described.
.
I also bought a 1916 Naval luger with it's correct land forces holster, as issued to the Naval land forces late in the war, fighting in Belgium. It is the same as the rig shown in Jan's book on Imperial Lugers plate xxxii

I trust you might be interested

Kind regards
Murray.

Heinz · 10-05-2002, 01:24 PM

As a neophyte in Luger collecting the comments on "altered" v " unaltered" caused me to go to my reference books to read and "look at the pictures."

There is a question about the need for this alteration that has been bothering me.

Jan Still cites June 22 1912 Navy correspondence as stating Luger safeties were to be altered to the down position to prevent their release unitentionally. Mr. Still leaves it at that. (Imperial Lugers pg 162) John Walter attributes this change (Luger Story p 113) as due to inadvertly tripping the safety in the holster.

The holster/safety tripping issue always seemed a stretch to me. In looking at the pictures I note that the 1904 variation flat spring Navy has the safety in the down position.

Mixing the 1906 "up position" safety with a 1904 "down position" safety would seem far more inherently dangerous and a compelling reason to change the position than some posible hang up in the holster. Also by 1912, all German military P08s would have down position safeties.

Comments? Is there documentation for the holster issue?

Tom A. Still a great Navy, and now less dangerous :-)

Imperial Arms · 10-05-2002, 10:37 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>Jan,
Now that you have opened Pandora's Box, I have a couple of questions. This is the first time I have seen a First Issue Altered that has the safety marking "GESICHERT" rather than "Gesichert" (Upper and lower case letters). Does anyone else have an all upper case safety marking on a 1st Issue Altered? Also, in the photos I could not discern any "halo" on the barrel markings. Could this be attributed to refinishing during the alteration, or the resolution of the photos?</strong><hr></blockquote>

With reference to Ron's question above, can someone please give an opinion/explanation when and why the switch occurred between 'GESICHERT' and 'Gesichert'? For example, when a Navy Luger was altered by the Navy (?) arsenal, was it a consideration to use a different style safety marking to distinguish it from the original marking? When a Navy Luger was altered, was the new safety marking suppose to be of the same style and size? Can anyone explain the different sizes of Gesichert makings on various Navy Lugers and has anyone seen any kind of pattern?

I must admit that the subject of safety markings on Military Navy Lugers can be confusing!

Cheers,
Albert

Jan C Still · 10-06-2002, 11:32 PM

Heinz · 10-07-2002, 08:22 PM

I think the Gesichert v GESICHERT question is interesting. I am going to start polling my friends with Navy Lugers for the answer.

Tom, can you form an opinion as to whether pistol 130 is stamped with a "word" stamp or single letters.

Jan, do you have an opinion on the stamp used for "Gesichert"? In Imperial Lugers the 1906 unaltered appear extremely uniform in alignment and placement which suggests to me a one piece stamp or a fixture holding the dies.

Thanks, heinz

Imperial Arms · 10-08-2002, 02:30 AM

Hello Jan,

Thank you for your detailed opinion on the Navy Luger safety markings. I am starting to get a better idea of this particular area which requires more attention when examining Navy Lugers.

I would also like to congratulate Heinz for his continued determination and eagerness to research this area in more depth. This is what I like to see on the Luger Forum. As we have witnessed, when a member shows an interesting and rare item such as Navy #130, it not only gives us pleasure, but it also gives us stimuli to broaden our scope of questions and conversations.

Well done fellows,
Albert

10-03-2002, 03:42 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The Album of photographs for Tom Armstrong's 1906 Navy has been posted in the Member Gallery... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-03-2002, 04:04 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Very nice description, especially nice photos Tom! My digital doesn't take close pictures worth a darn. Guess we won't go out shooting with her will we, [img]biggrin.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-04-2002, 10:20 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Jan, Now that you have opened Pandora's Box, I have a couple of questions. This is the first time I have seen a First Issue Altered that has the safety marking "GESICHERT" rather than "Gesichert" (Upper and lower case letters). Does anyone else have an all upper case safety marking on a 1st Issue Altered? Also, in the photos I could not discern any "halo" on the barrel markings. Could this be attributed to refinishing during the alteration, or the resolution of the photos? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-05-2002, 12:00 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Tom, Don't be too chagrinned...been there, done that. The thrill of discovery has blinded more than one collector. And, yes, its still a damn nice pistol! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-05-2002, 03:27 AM	#12
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Tom A, This is a remarkable coincidence but last Sunday, the 29th September I purchased the exact same model gun at an auction here in Auckland , New Zealand. First issue altered model Navy as below The gun was complete with its Danish made Holster which has the Royal Danish Crown stamps inside the flap. The gun is serial number 470 with no sufix. It is all matching numbers including the Mag which has concentric rings and large numbers along with the Crown over M. The gun retains about 95% original blue and most of the lesser parts retain much of thier original straw. It has the word GESICHERT in capitals and has the slot milled under the safety lever. It is unit Marked W.K. 94 just below the grip safty. Apparently, this gun was reissued during the occupation of Denmark and used by the Danish Wharf police. The holster was made in Denmark. It was one of twelve similar lots found in a Copenhagen bank safe after the war. The gun is very much in the exact same condition as the one Tom A has described. . I also bought a 1916 Naval luger with it's correct land forces holster, as issued to the Naval land forces late in the war, fighting in Belgium. It is the same as the rig shown in Jan's book on Imperial Lugers plate xxxii I trust you might be interested Kind regards Murray. __________________ Lugers down under

10-03-2002, 03:05 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	First Issue Unaltered SN 130 This piece was discovered at the MAX show. Detailed description follows. Standard 6" barrel with right side of front sight block evidencing scattered light pitting and metal erosion. Finish here is worn through in a few places. Remainder of right side of barrel is unremarkable. Even, antique blue finish with the odd pin-point pit here and there. Surface oxidation is visible eliminating need for semi-chrome test.Rear barrel proof is crisply struck and an exact duplicate of the one on the receiver. Frame rail evidences scattered light pitting and some white metal on corners. Takedown lever shows traces of strawand is properly marked in the commercial style.Two crown M proofs are present; the aft one showing the effects of a some minor corrosion inside the crown. Both proofs are crisp and under the bluing. Sideplate shows small pitted streak starting at upper third leading edge of the island and continues down to the bottom edge of the sideplate, ending at serial number stamp. Apparently there was some metalurgical problem with this piece to result in such a scar. Under the loupe, it is clearly a long slender pit; to the naked eye, it appears to be a deep scratch. The trigger retains slight cast of strawing, magazine release is unremarkable. Grips are tightly checkered old-style DWM in exc condition but have shrunk slightly causing a less than fully snug fit. Probable cause: storage in lighted case or heated area dehumidifying the wood. Side panel is unremarkable, rear safety shows traces of straw and is clearly of the First Issue variety with the GESICHERT well struck ABOVE the safety lever and a band of narrow milled white metal beneath. Bottom examination reveals Crown M and SN struck in the proper place. The Crown M is struck lighter than elsewhere and the left upright of the M is somewhat faint. It is present, but clearly the 'smith did not apply a uniform blow. Such inconsistencies are handmade craftsmanship. Forward frame reveals SN struck clearly without alphabetic suffix and uniform wear to finish across exterior surface of frame, trigger guard and forward grip strap.Magazine well is unremarkable. Aft grip strap and grip safety show uniform darkening of finish to blue-brownish and dispersed clusters of microscopic pitting. Surface oxidation is present. The strap is property marked W.K.8536 and the last digit is not properly aligned/centered. Also, the property mark reveals a uniform oxidation inside the stamping and a very slight halo around the exterior of each individual strike. Toggle rear is properly serialed. Top of frame, toggle and rear sight are as expected. Left side exterior reveals nothing out of the ordinary. Disassembly reveals the cannon lug to be properly serialed and the presence of brown stains from grease on cannon rails. Bolt is serialed as is underside of toggle. Toggle axel has flange on left shank and is fire blued.Trigger SN matches. Pop the left grip and note presence of pitting and oxidation at wood/metal contact points. Mainspring shows reddish discoloration. Pop right grip, more of same, except some old dried crud comes out of grip screw hole. Probably dried grease.Inside of frame shows oxidation on polished white metal and more of the brown staining. Smell reveals no odor of anything except old gun grease. Bore is dirty and has some visible pitting/darkening. Should clean to VG (+) with some elbow grease. Both grip panels are SN and have what appears to be the so called Flaming Bomb abeam the SN. Have not encountered this before.Both grip screws are uniformly faded fire blue with no wear to slots. Conclusion: An unmessed with First Issue Unaltered that saw service and has the scars to prove it. Other Photographs of this 1906 1st Issue Unaltered Navy Luger can be seen in the Member Gallery that is linked from the Lugerforum homepage: Lugerforum Homepage Tom A. [img]smile.gif[/img]

10-03-2002, 07:10 PM	#4
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Wow! Out there with that lantern searching for an honest man and you found it. Good for you!

10-03-2002, 08:13 PM	#5
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Tom, A very fine and respectible First Issue Navy Luger! I especially like the details of authenticity such as: the mill marks on the back of the frame; the slight patina on various areas of the pistol; and the nice consistent straw showing the fine machining 'grain'. Congratulations on the low serial number which is a great find indeed! Great hunting, Albert Imperial Arms

10-04-2002, 06:35 PM	#6
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-04-2002, 09:04 PM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Jan, according to the references you quoted and re-inspection of my first issue altered Navy, you are indeed CORRECT! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

10-04-2002, 11:29 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I stand redfaced corrected; somehow the "blinding flash of the obvious" eluded me. But then again, it has ben said that I could be outwitted by sheep... A chagrinned, Tom A. PS..Its still a damn nice pistol!

10-05-2002, 12:21 AM	#11
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-05-2002, 01:24 PM	#13
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	As a neophyte in Luger collecting the comments on "altered" v " unaltered" caused me to go to my reference books to read and "look at the pictures." There is a question about the need for this alteration that has been bothering me. Jan Still cites June 22 1912 Navy correspondence as stating Luger safeties were to be altered to the down position to prevent their release unitentionally. Mr. Still leaves it at that. (Imperial Lugers pg 162) John Walter attributes this change (Luger Story p 113) as due to inadvertly tripping the safety in the holster. The holster/safety tripping issue always seemed a stretch to me. In looking at the pictures I note that the 1904 variation flat spring Navy has the safety in the down position. Mixing the 1906 "up position" safety with a 1904 "down position" safety would seem far more inherently dangerous and a compelling reason to change the position than some posible hang up in the holster. Also by 1912, all German military P08s would have down position safeties. Comments? Is there documentation for the holster issue? Tom A. Still a great Navy, and now less dangerous :-)

10-05-2002, 10:37 PM	#14
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>Jan, Now that you have opened Pandora's Box, I have a couple of questions. This is the first time I have seen a First Issue Altered that has the safety marking "GESICHERT" rather than "Gesichert" (Upper and lower case letters). Does anyone else have an all upper case safety marking on a 1st Issue Altered? Also, in the photos I could not discern any "halo" on the barrel markings. Could this be attributed to refinishing during the alteration, or the resolution of the photos?</strong><hr></blockquote> With reference to Ron's question above, can someone please give an opinion/explanation when and why the switch occurred between 'GESICHERT' and 'Gesichert'? For example, when a Navy Luger was altered by the Navy (?) arsenal, was it a consideration to use a different style safety marking to distinguish it from the original marking? When a Navy Luger was altered, was the new safety marking suppose to be of the same style and size? Can anyone explain the different sizes of Gesichert makings on various Navy Lugers and has anyone seen any kind of pattern? I must admit that the subject of safety markings on Military Navy Lugers can be confusing! Cheers, Albert

10-06-2002, 11:32 PM	#15
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-07-2002, 08:22 PM	#16
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	I think the Gesichert v GESICHERT question is interesting. I am going to start polling my friends with Navy Lugers for the answer. Tom, can you form an opinion as to whether pistol 130 is stamped with a "word" stamp or single letters. Jan, do you have an opinion on the stamp used for "Gesichert"? In Imperial Lugers the 1906 unaltered appear extremely uniform in alignment and placement which suggests to me a one piece stamp or a fixture holding the dies. Thanks, heinz

10-08-2002, 02:30 AM	#17
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Jan, Thank you for your detailed opinion on the Navy Luger safety markings. I am starting to get a better idea of this particular area which requires more attention when examining Navy Lugers. I would also like to congratulate Heinz for his continued determination and eagerness to research this area in more depth. This is what I like to see on the Luger Forum. As we have witnessed, when a member shows an interesting and rare item such as Navy #130, it not only gives us pleasure, but it also gives us stimuli to broaden our scope of questions and conversations. Well done fellows, Albert