Dateless navy luger

JL · 11-17-2003, 01:01 PM

I have a navy luger that has no date on the receiver. It is a well worn pistol, without grip safety, but I can see no trace of any marking on top in front of the toggle. Has crowm M mark under bbl and 3 crowns (2 with M) on left receiver. External and internal numbers match, though I don't know where all are found. Takedown and side plate numbered on lower surface instead of face as on '08s. Rear toggle is numbeed on back under the 2 position rear sight. The fonts seem to match serial #3151 over script b. W.K. over 9336 on back strap. In looking through posts, I saw one about a line around the chamber and there seems to be a faint one near the front. Any possibility of the lack of date being original. I got it for a very reasonable price even if it is just a shooter. JL

John Sabato · 11-17-2003, 01:44 PM

JL,

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Navy Lugers are often fraudulently created in an attempt to sell an ordinary Luger at an inflated price, but that doesn't mean that yours is... or isn't.

Do you have a way to post digital photographs? This would help those with the necessary knowledge to make a fair judgement on the originality of your pistol without having to personally hold it.

There are particular areas that should be shown in clear focus photos. They are the serial number area on the front of the frame/trigger guard, the area on the left front of the receiver where the Crown stamps with the "M" under them appear. The stamps on the backstrap. The area near the safety marking "gesichert" and of course, closeups of the rear sight/toggle assembly...

The W.K. with the number below it is a Naval Unit Marking and I am sure someone will shortly post what that means for you.

Overall photographs are more than welcome.

You did not mention the stamp on the forward toggle link (DWM, Erfurt or whatever)... This is also important information.

Does the gun have a grip safety?

Is there a date on the left side of the front sight base?

What is the diameter measurement of the flange on the rearmost toggle axle?

We look forward to seeing your Luger...

JL · 11-17-2003, 02:23 PM

Can't do pics. Toggle has DWM mark. The rear toggles pin has a head of .355". Didn't notice, the ends of the front sight blade's male dovetail have been ground off flush and any marking on the base with it. Probably same fool ground receiver. Bought it as a cheap representative example. I suppose it's a candidate for my rust bluing and nitre blue and strawing to make a good looking shooter. At least it has a nice bore. JL

John Sabato · 11-17-2003, 02:39 PM

Okay here is a photo of two rear toggle axles... the one on the bottom is the size of the Navy pin... the upper photo is standard P.08 size

Hope this helps in ID'ing your luger.

JL · 11-17-2003, 02:52 PM

It has the large axel .355 instead of .310 as in my Finn luger. JL

John Sabato · 11-17-2003, 03:05 PM

I would say that it appears that your gun was originally a Navy Luger... but good photos are the only way to verify that.

Since you don't have a digital camera, If you have a flatbed scanner, or access to one, they can make a pretty decent image of the gun laid on the glass... and covered with a white cloth...

Navy · 11-17-2003, 03:22 PM

With no grip safety and no chamber date, its what collectors refer to as an 08 Navy. Pls don't re-blue it; it has collector value even if banged up; reblue will destroy that.

Tom A.

JL · 11-18-2003, 12:12 AM

The pistol has little finish left on bbl and high spots on receiver. Grip straps same way. But protected areas have good dark finish. Looks like holster and hadling wear. Except for the ends of the front sight dovetail being ground it appears unaltered, though it has a small amount of pitting. Grips also have wear but it looks mostly like the checkering is filled with old grime. I think I got it fairly cheap because the new repro navy rig it came with makes it look shabby.
Any idea when a "b" suffix 1906 would have been made? Thanks, JL

Douglas Jr. · 12-07-2003, 07:13 AM

JL,

The marking on the grip means "Werft Kiel" (Dockyard Kiel) - or a better approach: Naval Arsenal Kiel - and the number is its inventory number (gun #9336). (Source: Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz and John Walter - "The Navy Luger").

Hope it helps,

Douglas.

Big Norm · 12-19-2003, 04:20 AM

Sounds like a 1908 to me. Mine does not have a date on the side of the front sight and the numbering on the side plate and take down is the same as yours.I believe that the date on the front sight only occured on the model 1914 navies. If the frame is a long frame then I would think that you have a 1908. Look at the side of the frame just in front of the take down at the curve. If the curve is bigger than any other post 1908 Luger that you have handy then that would be a long frame. The 1908 navy would not have a date on the chamber. Dating the chamber did not began until 1910.Your larger head on the toggle pin is correct for a navy Luger. Pictures would help confirm. See what you can do.
If it is a 1908, then it is a hard to find date especially with the markings on the rear strap and restoring would ruin its collectibility and price. Without pictures it is hard to say much more.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 12-19-2003, 09:57 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />... then it is a hard to find date.
Big Norm<hr /></blockquote>Norm, you have always led us to believe that you NEVER have a hard time finding dates

Big Norm · 12-20-2003, 01:46 PM

John,
they never want me for my personality and humor. They only want me for my Lugers.
Big Norm

11-17-2003, 01:01 PM	#1
JL User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: nebraska Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dateless navy luger I have a navy luger that has no date on the receiver. It is a well worn pistol, without grip safety, but I can see no trace of any marking on top in front of the toggle. Has crowm M mark under bbl and 3 crowns (2 with M) on left receiver. External and internal numbers match, though I don't know where all are found. Takedown and side plate numbered on lower surface instead of face as on '08s. Rear toggle is numbeed on back under the 2 position rear sight. The fonts seem to match serial #3151 over script b. W.K. over 9336 on back strap. In looking through posts, I saw one about a line around the chamber and there seems to be a faint one near the front. Any possibility of the lack of date being original. I got it for a very reasonable price even if it is just a shooter. JL

11-17-2003, 01:44 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	JL, Welcome to the Lugerforum. Navy Lugers are often fraudulently created in an attempt to sell an ordinary Luger at an inflated price, but that doesn't mean that yours is... or isn't. Do you have a way to post digital photographs? This would help those with the necessary knowledge to make a fair judgement on the originality of your pistol without having to personally hold it. There are particular areas that should be shown in clear focus photos. They are the serial number area on the front of the frame/trigger guard, the area on the left front of the receiver where the Crown stamps with the "M" under them appear. The stamps on the backstrap. The area near the safety marking "gesichert" and of course, closeups of the rear sight/toggle assembly... The W.K. with the number below it is a Naval Unit Marking and I am sure someone will shortly post what that means for you. Overall photographs are more than welcome. You did not mention the stamp on the forward toggle link (DWM, Erfurt or whatever)... This is also important information. Does the gun have a grip safety? Is there a date on the left side of the front sight base? What is the diameter measurement of the flange on the rearmost toggle axle? We look forward to seeing your Luger... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-17-2003, 02:39 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Okay here is a photo of two rear toggle axles... the one on the bottom is the size of the Navy pin... the upper photo is standard P.08 size Hope this helps in ID'ing your luger. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-17-2003, 03:05 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I would say that it appears that your gun was originally a Navy Luger... but good photos are the only way to verify that. Since you don't have a digital camera, If you have a flatbed scanner, or access to one, they can make a pretty decent image of the gun laid on the glass... and covered with a white cloth... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-19-2003, 09:57 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">... then it is a hard to find date. Big Norm</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Norm, you have always led us to believe that you NEVER have a hard time finding dates __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-17-2003, 02:23 PM	#3
JL User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: nebraska Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Can't do pics. Toggle has DWM mark. The rear toggles pin has a head of .355". Didn't notice, the ends of the front sight blade's male dovetail have been ground off flush and any marking on the base with it. Probably same fool ground receiver. Bought it as a cheap representative example. I suppose it's a candidate for my rust bluing and nitre blue and strawing to make a good looking shooter. At least it has a nice bore. JL

11-17-2003, 02:52 PM	#5
JL User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: nebraska Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It has the large axel .355 instead of .310 as in my Finn luger. JL

11-17-2003, 03:22 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	With no grip safety and no chamber date, its what collectors refer to as an 08 Navy. Pls don't re-blue it; it has collector value even if banged up; reblue will destroy that. Tom A.

11-18-2003, 12:12 AM	#8
JL User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: nebraska Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The pistol has little finish left on bbl and high spots on receiver. Grip straps same way. But protected areas have good dark finish. Looks like holster and hadling wear. Except for the ends of the front sight dovetail being ground it appears unaltered, though it has a small amount of pitting. Grips also have wear but it looks mostly like the checkering is filled with old grime. I think I got it fairly cheap because the new repro navy rig it came with makes it look shabby. Any idea when a "b" suffix 1906 would have been made? Thanks, JL

12-07-2003, 07:13 AM	#9
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	JL, The marking on the grip means "Werft Kiel" (Dockyard Kiel) - or a better approach: Naval Arsenal Kiel - and the number is its inventory number (gun #9336). (Source: Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz and John Walter - "The Navy Luger"). Hope it helps, Douglas.

12-19-2003, 04:20 AM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Sounds like a 1908 to me. Mine does not have a date on the side of the front sight and the numbering on the side plate and take down is the same as yours.I believe that the date on the front sight only occured on the model 1914 navies. If the frame is a long frame then I would think that you have a 1908. Look at the side of the frame just in front of the take down at the curve. If the curve is bigger than any other post 1908 Luger that you have handy then that would be a long frame. The 1908 navy would not have a date on the chamber. Dating the chamber did not began until 1910.Your larger head on the toggle pin is correct for a navy Luger. Pictures would help confirm. See what you can do. If it is a 1908, then it is a hard to find date especially with the markings on the rear strap and restoring would ruin its collectibility and price. Without pictures it is hard to say much more. Big Norm

12-20-2003, 01:46 PM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, they never want me for my personality and humor. They only want me for my Lugers. Big Norm