Forensic Exam

[Navy]

Presents a Naval Model P-08 purporting to be a post W.W.I import to the USA. Exam conducted using 10X Loupe, 3X glas and OTT light.

Left Side External:
No date under front sight block. Exterior blue shows microscopic pits under the blue. Straw is 98-99% coverage but color is very light. Crown Ms are well struck and crisp. They are blued internal to the stamping. Magazine release button is different; something I have never encountered: The checkering does not extend to the edge of the button on 3 of four quadrants. It is off by a single row of checkering in these quadrants. Grip panel is excellent old DWM quality walnut with tight checkering and not a diamond missing or flat. Exquisite wood with a beautiful dark stripe in the grain. Sear bar is numbered and halo is present.

External right side.
Minor pin prick pitting abeam sight ramp and 1" rearward and another about 1.5" forward of juncture of barrel and frame. Some very slight metal erosion at front of the frame. Minor pin point pits at top margin of grip panel. Metal striation pattern from polishing is consistent with exemplar known to be original.

Sideplate.
Edge wear to high points and margin of island. Reverse side is correct. Metal polishing marks are properly vertical on the large field of the plate and horizontal above the island, feathering together and disappearing at the upper right corner of the island.

Bottom.
Minor metal erosion at butt toe and and some minor dings and dents at magazine well mouth.

Internal.
Grip to metal contact has resulted in visible pitting. Some is under the bluing; some is clearly penetrating the blue from the top. All internal parts are numbered as they should be. A very small section in the corner of the inside butt heel is still in the white. Witness marks align perfectly and present no evidence of ever being disturbed. Bore is dirty and has a very little frost. Grip panels are serialed to the gun and have several other stamps and inspector's marks.

Markings.
Barrel is marked longitudinally GERMANY in caps; marking is haloed. Barrel SN and proof are clear and crisp, blued internal to the metal strike. All serial number fonts are the same in size and appearance. The frame has numerous alphabetic stamps on the back strap edges where it contacts the grip panel.

Magazine.
Concentric ring wooden plug. Shows evidence of having serial number and Crown M proof removed. Tube is high quality nickle plate marked GERMANY on long axis.

Other notes.
No scent of coppersulfate; two areas on barrel and frame passed semi-chrome swab test.

Assessment: This piece is as it purports to be. It was a military issue piece that probably saw some service (hence the metal loss, dings and pits, bore frost) but was reconditioned for sale/export. The reconditioning was done most likely by the Berlin factory of BIKW, based on the metal polishing striations being exactly as an original finish should appear. The magazine release button checkering is somewhat problematic; one assumes that the post war standards we somewhat lowered perhaps due to economic imperatives (Use what is available)or a decline in craftsmanship as the "old hands" became pensioners or were layed off when production ceased in 1918. The semi-chrome test is convincing evidence that this piece has a very old finish, and the pits being both under and on top of the bluing substantiates that the finish is not the original one. This is perfectly logical and to be expected in a piece of this type.

Conclusion:
A righteous post war export P-08 Navy. Would upload about 15-20 pix but the instructions provided are not compatible with my AOL browser.

[John Sabato]

Tom,
Email the photos to me with a short description (if needed) and I will post them for you in your post on Monday...

[Edward Tinker]

I was in the middle of a discussion, probably the most eloquent thing in my life and the power went off here in Ole Eastern Washington (still off, laptop will work for a couple of hours).

Anyway, I will add just a text version of what to do to add a photo to the forum:

1. Open your browser to www.lugerforum.com .
2. Open another browser to www.lugerforum.com .
3. Click on Upload photos. It will then show you a block that you need to find your photo on your hard drive. Find the picture, make sure it is less than 180 kilobytes, click on it. It will upload and show you the picture. If more than 180 kbâ??s, it will go back to the original page. So, it Was less than 180, so now it shows you the picture and the upload link.
4. Click on the other browser on the message board and go to the area you want to expound upon.
5. Put in your words of wisdom. Here is the tricky part, go to the upload photo picture page, and copy the words. Should be something like http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/uploadebt1b.jpg, now copy it to the clipboard and go back to your message. Down below the message block is image. Click on this an area pops up on your screen and you paste the http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/uploadebt1b.jpg into the block. If you donâ??t want the photo to appear, just put the http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/uploadebt1b.jpg in the message block and it will appear as a link for us to look at.
Once you have done this a couple of times, it is fairly easy. Remember, if you can figure out how to fix a car, train soldiers, corporate members, some stupid computer canâ??t defeat you. (That is what I always tell myself). [img]smile.gif[/img]


Tom, great post, I enjoy these tear aparts of your own guns, fascinating and I know it takes a long time to put into words. THANKS <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[Dwight Gruber]

Semi-chrome test?? Details will be informative and much appreciated...

--Dwight

[Navy]

I am convinced that attempting to upload pictures here will buy one out of purgatory.

If anyone wants pix of the stuff in my post about tearing down the latest acquisition, pls send me an email off list with an email address and I will be pleased to send them.

Life is too short for some things and uploading pictures here is one of them.
[img]frown.gif[/img]

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Tom A. ;

This is quite interesting.

In a previous post, I was surmising if reworks from the 1920's would possibly leave some rust/pitting that got refinished over at the factory arsenal.

Our very opinionated, Garfield, said this was not very likely.

Sounds like your BIKW rework did leave some pitting that got reblued...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Garfield]

Pete:

One of the problems that I note to exist on this forum is that there are several people on it who have yet to acquire the knowledge and experience which would allow them to appreciate that subtle distinctions exist in this, as in most other collecting fields. Consequently, being unable to either distinquish between these nuances or to even recognise that they exist such people tend to lump all things together and then make broad generalized statements which are basically meaningless, seemingly for the sole purpose of demonstating that someone's comments are incorrect. Sadly, I find that you fall within this catagory.

[Big Norm]

Tom A,
does your rear toggle pin have the large flange or a small one? Since this was a rework of a military navy, I assume that it has the large flange. Is the sloppy rework you mentioned common on Weimar Era Navies? My 1920 commercial has the small flange and the pin is in the white.

Does the serial number on the front of the frame and the back of the rear toggle look larger than one would expect on a military navy Luger? In a previous post from Tom Heller it was noted that the numbering size would be double the size that one would expect on a military navy, if the gun was renumbered. These are the only places that I have noticed the larger numbers. But I also have an old, dull black rebluing, military navy luger that I have always assumed to be a Weimar Era rework has the same large size numbering in the same spots.

I'm looking forward to your pictures.
Big Norm

[John Sabato]

I am awaiting the arrival of the photos so I can post them... Hope all had a great weekend.