Dealer in Texas

MG · 06-04-2003, 01:47 AM

Hello all,
I was on gunbroker and I see LOTS of parts that
seem to be number for all kinds of Lugers. I wish to know if anyone knows about the dealer in :
Copperas Cove, Texas that seems to always have
stuff to sell.( I have a bad feeling about this).

Off topic: just bought a C-96 bolo? that looks like its all matching ( I have not dissembled her yet) but I was woundering how to check the proofs as to see if it is German made NOT Chinese. Seems to be made in 1923-1930? by serial number.

Also, What should be a fair price for an 1914 Artillery that looks to have all matching numbers
and three clips matched to gun? It looks about 85-95% on finish but has no rig and back site does not mach gun.(I can not look in side)

Sorry about all questions

Thank you

Edward Tinker · 06-04-2003, 01:57 AM

This has been brought up a couple of times, if you do a search on Copperas Cove, I am sure you will see the posts.

I have never dealt with him, he seems to have poor pictures and little info, that makes me nervous, but I don't mean to pre-judge him, but his items don't sell very fast?

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 06-04-2003, 03:39 AM

I can only speak to the LP-08 question. Is it a DWM or an Erfurt? Erfurt Artilleries are usually seen $300 or so less than corresponding condition DWMs. That being said, 1914 DWM LP-08 are rare birds, estimated production only 5,000 pieces, and would bring a premium.

LP-08 prices are all over the place and going up. I have personally seen a 1917 Artillery in about 80% go for $1,200; a 1914 Erfurt in about 90% for $1,350; and a really nice, 95%+ 1917 DWM go for $1,700. These were all-matching guns. Its impossible to assess the Luger you are considering without much more information and pictures.

As far as the magazines are concerned, there is a huge cottage industry in counterfeiting magazines to match up with Lugers. One matching magazine is uncommon, but is known to happen. There are Lugers with two authentic matching magazines, but they are extremely rare and open to question. Unlesss there is steel-tight, authenticated documentation proving that the three magazines indeed match the gun, you should view them with extreme scepticism.

Never apologise for the questions, they are one of the things which makes this forum fun.

If you have more info about this Luger let us know, and keep us informed about its disposition in any case.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 06-04-2003, 07:50 AM

I was not aware that more than two magazines were ever matched to a particular Luger. Does anyone know if this was a common practice? Done only with artillery models?

I am very suspicious of the fact that there are 3 matching mags unless one of them is a TM-08 trommelmagazine (Snail drum).

Photos of the three mag bottoms and the serial number on the front of the frame would be greatly appreciated.

Dwight Gruber · 06-04-2003, 10:16 AM

According to Still ("Imperial Lugers", p.109) LP-08 were issued with two extra magazines.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 06-04-2003, 10:47 AM

Thanks Dwight!

Edward Tinker · 06-04-2003, 11:56 AM

Also, in police Lugers, it is not uncommon to find a #3 and sometimes a #4!

From Jan Stills Weimar, "In a 2-4-1930 dated police manual it is indicated that Landjagerei reserve P08 magazines are to be increased to two per pistol (Wotka, 1990).

Increased by two, when two were already issued. Besides, these magazine pouches hold two, when I worked the road, if I had a two pouch holder, I usually had two magazines in it.

Ed

George Anderson · 06-04-2003, 12:13 PM

I have a 1915 LP08 with three matching mags and stock, but it is a 1920's import. I am sure the rig was assembled in Germany just prior to export. TM's were not issued with pistols, but rather in a wooden case with five snails, a loading tool and ammo.

Pete Ebbink · 06-04-2003, 01:56 PM

One in the pistol and two in the pouch :

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/ArtyRig.gif

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

MG · 06-04-2003, 04:06 PM

Hello,
I think I may have read wrong about the mags,
but good to know that it is possable to have 3.
The Artillery does not have any marks on the
toggle but the numbers seem to be the same as the serial numbers on the gun .(struck the same?)
Ok, I guess I should not do this but the gun is on
Gunbroker. I am thinking of buying, but I do not know if it is a fake or not.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=9359417
(My handle is Greystone1)

This would be my frist Artillery if I win, so I like anyone who knows more about them to help me please. I did ask about his , but have not heard back yet. There are no bids as of yet and I would have bid last night, But as I said I know little about them. Is this maybe a shooter only?

Thanks all

Edward Tinker · 06-04-2003, 04:32 PM

MG, the toggle is blank is an indication of a rework or parts gun, as all True Lange (Artillery's) were made by Erfurt or DWM. It has the "made in Germany" and so is an export during the 20's (or so). I wouldn't immediately call it a "shooter" as these were factory reworks, (not always from what I understand) and so it all depends on what you want. I like the Weimar era, because of all the wildness, and you sift out what is bad and pick what is good.

Right now, price is good, as each magazine is worth at least $50 if original and possibly more and who knows about the magazine pouch?

Ed

Ron Wood · 06-04-2003, 05:06 PM

The Artillery is an Erfurt. It is doubtful that any of the magazines match the gun, but certainly the aluminum based WWII magazines would not match unless they were "forced". The gun overall isn't too bad and it has the "fine tuned" front and rear sights (which is proper for a 1914). If it had a properly marked toggle, it would be a good buy. The double mag pouch, if original, is worth a bit, plus the magazines have some value. I think your current bid is OK, but shouldn't go too much higher. I don't know if you can make the reserve bid and still get your money's worth, but it isn't a bad looking artillery, just don't let your emotions override your pocketbook.

John Sabato · 06-04-2003, 05:27 PM

I haven't got time for photographic work tonight... but will update tomorrow. Under magnification, the "blank toggle" appears to have had the manufacturer's mark ground off, but there is trace evidence of a serial number that may match. This could mean that the toggle was ground to hide the fact that the toggle is not original. I will finish my photo forensics tomorrow and post my findings...

In the meantime, it looks like a great shooter

policeluger · 06-04-2003, 05:47 PM

Ed..."it's not uncommon too find to find a #3 and sometimes a #4" mag in police Luger rigs??? man I need too start going too the gun shows in your area. I would say that a matched, not forced matched, but original #3 and #4 mag is near unheard of.

Edward Tinker · 06-04-2003, 08:37 PM

Agreed, I have seen one or two 3's in person, have one on my police Luger, but have never seen a #4. But hey, the book says.... (and if I had other police guns to compare with my scant knowledge...)

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I would say that a matched, not forced matched, but original #3 and #4 mag is near unheard of.<hr /></blockquote>So a forced match older magazine is what? Several of my magazines are aluminum based and I find that acceptable from what I have read? My #3 is one and is serial numbered to my gun and if forced matched, is a old beat up one.

So instead of saying it is not uncommon, I should have said, it is not unheard of to see a 3 or 4.

John Sabato · 06-05-2003, 10:53 AM

After examining the toggle photograph in high magnification...

At point "A" we can see that the last two digits of the serial number is 81 as shown on the extractor... There is a faint trace of a two digit serial number remaining on the toggle... the number can't be an 81 because the bottom of both digits is rounded and not flat as the bottom of the one should appear.

At point "B" it appears that the chamfer or bevels that normally appear on the top sides of the toggle have been reduced in size (probably by milling or surface grinding... this would account for the lack of a manufacturer's stamp in the middle of the toggle... the fact that there is a trace of the serial number digits but no manufacturer's mark indicates to me that the grinding operation was not perfectly in a plane with the flat surface of the toggle... in other words, the serial numbered end of the toggle was just a tad low when the grinding operation took place... so the toggle ends up with a new flat surface but not in the same plane as the original...

At the opposite end of the toggle (point "C"), we can see uneven marks where the milling or grinding operation ended near the toggle to breechblock joint...

So, my conclusion (read that OPINION) is that based on the auction photograph, this toggle has been replaced by one of WW2 manufacture and the mark to identify the maker has been removed to hide that fact from the uninformed...

This would not be a something done by a previous owner with a file... this had to be done by a machinist or a gunsmith with appropriate power tools.

Because of reflection, there is no way to determine how close the new finish matches the finish on the rest of the gun.

I classify this gun as a very nice looking SHOOTER... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> not a collectable (at this point in time).

That's my

and I'm stickin' to it... unless someone can come up with a really good reason to change...

MG · 06-05-2003, 03:54 PM

Dear Mr.Sabato,

If this was just a good shooter, what would be a fair price on the Luger? I have asked for the reserve on this, but he will not tell me. As I do not wish to pay more than I have to, can anyone say anything about price? Also Mr Sabato, do you see anything else wrong about this gun? I was told
that the numbers inside were also matching, but he did not say which ones.(if he? muck-muck the toggle maybe the same for rest of the gun)

Thank you for looking in to this for me as I know your time is important and you can not look at everything that posts.

Thank you

John Sabato · 06-05-2003, 04:32 PM

MG,

"Mr. Sabato" is my father

... please call me John.

I responded to your questions about this piece because I enjoy examining photographs of Lugers, and I have studied them for several decades... I am not an author on Lugers, nor do I consider myself an "expert" -- but I am very knowledgeable about much Luger history and manufacturing processes and gunsmithing techniques...because I have done a lot of reading of Luger books written by people that are considered experts.

I am also very capable with a computer (make my living with one) and digital photographic techniques to improve detail... this makes looking at auction photographs an interesting pasttime for me...

Most auctioneers will not tell you their reserve price...if they did, it would serve them no purpose... if they don't get their reserve price, they just re-list the item and try again. If they hold out long enough, they are gambling that someone will come up with the money.

The value of this or any other gun depends on the condition of the gun and many other factors...originality of the parts, finish, consequential damage from handling, the rarity of the model and many other things, but especially what is the gun worth to YOU?

I cannot guide you on what value this gun has for you... If this gun were to complete some kind of collection for a person, it would have more value that for someone who just wanted a long barreled Luger to shoot...

You have already stated that the rear sight is not matching and I have explained that the front toggle appears to be non-matching... that makes this a parts gun. It is not a collectable gun, but to someone whose grandfather used one in World War one it might be exactly what they are looking for to honor their memory and they would pay a bunch more than someone who just wants to shoot one.

I bought both of the Lugers that I own over two decades ago for less than a total of $200. That was a LOT of money to me back then (almost half a month's pay), but I wanted those Lugers really bad.

You will have to decide what the gun is worth to you before you bid. Perhaps you need to do a lot more research before you are ready to buy an auction gun. Like for the next few months, you should watch every auction of an artillery and catalog the sales price and the condition of each one... then come up with your own statistics on value and look for the next one that meets your needs... AND your wallet!

In the meantime, you can offer a price of $25.00 above the current bid until you reach the limit of your budget for your "shooter" -- There is no magic rule for buying old guns... buy the best you can afford, and when you can, trade up to improve your collection. If you get outbid, then I am afraid it wasn't your turn...maybe next time.

Good Luck.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-05-2003, 07:20 PM

MG, This whole thing looks monkeyed with. The aluminum bottom mags look parkerized. The wood bottom you can see is blued? The toggle being ground down far enough to erase the maker mark is dangerous to shoot in my opinion. It could have cracked there and been welded and thusly the maker mark obliterated. (worse case scenario) The mag pouch is worth $150 the mags maybe $50@ so $350 for accesories. That leaves $700 for an unsafe shooter, IMO. If I were looking for an artillery I would keep my money in my pocket untill I found one I could shoot without worrying about the toggle or the bad pitting I see. It's your money but for just a bit more I would say you could find a much better pistol if you had some patience. I always believe it's better to spend a little more to buy quality and when you go to sell you will not have to apologize for anything wrong with the pistol. My advice for this rig is NO. Jerry Burney

While I am at it I feel it is courteous to leave your name when communicating with fellow Forum members. Why more people do not do this I cannot understand. Simply sign, at least your first name at the end and everyone has a reference for future communications. Thanks, Jerry Burney

06-04-2003, 01:47 AM	#1
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dealer in Texas Hello all, I was on gunbroker and I see LOTS of parts that seem to be number for all kinds of Lugers. I wish to know if anyone knows about the dealer in : Copperas Cove, Texas that seems to always have stuff to sell.( I have a bad feeling about this). Off topic: just bought a C-96 bolo? that looks like its all matching ( I have not dissembled her yet) but I was woundering how to check the proofs as to see if it is German made NOT Chinese. Seems to be made in 1923-1930? by serial number. Also, What should be a fair price for an 1914 Artillery that looks to have all matching numbers and three clips matched to gun? It looks about 85-95% on finish but has no rig and back site does not mach gun.(I can not look in side) Sorry about all questions Thank you __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

06-04-2003, 01:57 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	This has been brought up a couple of times, if you do a search on Copperas Cove, I am sure you will see the posts. I have never dealt with him, he seems to have poor pictures and little info, that makes me nervous, but I don't mean to pre-judge him, but his items don't sell very fast? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-04-2003, 10:47 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thanks Dwight! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-04-2003, 11:56 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Also, in police Lugers, it is not uncommon to find a #3 and sometimes a #4! From Jan Stills Weimar, "In a 2-4-1930 dated police manual it is indicated that Landjagerei reserve P08 magazines are to be increased to two per pistol (Wotka, 1990). Increased by two, when two were already issued. Besides, these magazine pouches hold two, when I worked the road, if I had a two pouch holder, I usually had two magazines in it. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-04-2003, 04:06 PM	#10
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello, I think I may have read wrong about the mags, but good to know that it is possable to have 3. The Artillery does not have any marks on the toggle but the numbers seem to be the same as the serial numbers on the gun .(struck the same?) Ok, I guess I should not do this but the gun is on Gunbroker. I am thinking of buying, but I do not know if it is a fake or not. http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=9359417 (My handle is Greystone1) This would be my frist Artillery if I win, so I like anyone who knows more about them to help me please. I did ask about his , but have not heard back yet. There are no bids as of yet and I would have bid last night, But as I said I know little about them. Is this maybe a shooter only? Thanks all __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

06-04-2003, 03:39 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	I can only speak to the LP-08 question. Is it a DWM or an Erfurt? Erfurt Artilleries are usually seen $300 or so less than corresponding condition DWMs. That being said, 1914 DWM LP-08 are rare birds, estimated production only 5,000 pieces, and would bring a premium. LP-08 prices are all over the place and going up. I have personally seen a 1917 Artillery in about 80% go for $1,200; a 1914 Erfurt in about 90% for $1,350; and a really nice, 95%+ 1917 DWM go for $1,700. These were all-matching guns. Its impossible to assess the Luger you are considering without much more information and pictures. As far as the magazines are concerned, there is a huge cottage industry in counterfeiting magazines to match up with Lugers. One matching magazine is uncommon, but is known to happen. There are Lugers with two authentic matching magazines, but they are extremely rare and open to question. Unlesss there is steel-tight, authenticated documentation proving that the three magazines indeed match the gun, you should view them with extreme scepticism. Never apologise for the questions, they are one of the things which makes this forum fun. If you have more info about this Luger let us know, and keep us informed about its disposition in any case. --Dwight

06-04-2003, 07:50 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I was not aware that more than two magazines were ever matched to a particular Luger. Does anyone know if this was a common practice? Done only with artillery models? I am very suspicious of the fact that there are 3 matching mags unless one of them is a TM-08 trommelmagazine (Snail drum). Photos of the three mag bottoms and the serial number on the front of the frame would be greatly appreciated. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-04-2003, 10:16 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	According to Still ("Imperial Lugers", p.109) LP-08 were issued with two extra magazines. --Dwight

06-04-2003, 12:13 PM	#8
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I have a 1915 LP08 with three matching mags and stock, but it is a 1920's import. I am sure the rig was assembled in Germany just prior to export. TM's were not issued with pistols, but rather in a wooden case with five snails, a loading tool and ammo.

06-04-2003, 01:56 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	One in the pistol and two in the pouch : http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/ArtyRig.gif Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-04-2003, 04:32 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	MG, the toggle is blank is an indication of a rework or parts gun, as all True Lange (Artillery's) were made by Erfurt or DWM. It has the "made in Germany" and so is an export during the 20's (or so). I wouldn't immediately call it a "shooter" as these were factory reworks, (not always from what I understand) and so it all depends on what you want. I like the Weimar era, because of all the wildness, and you sift out what is bad and pick what is good. Right now, price is good, as each magazine is worth at least $50 if original and possibly more and who knows about the magazine pouch? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-04-2003, 05:06 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The Artillery is an Erfurt. It is doubtful that any of the magazines match the gun, but certainly the aluminum based WWII magazines would not match unless they were "forced". The gun overall isn't too bad and it has the "fine tuned" front and rear sights (which is proper for a 1914). If it had a properly marked toggle, it would be a good buy. The double mag pouch, if original, is worth a bit, plus the magazines have some value. I think your current bid is OK, but shouldn't go too much higher. I don't know if you can make the reserve bid and still get your money's worth, but it isn't a bad looking artillery, just don't let your emotions override your pocketbook. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-04-2003, 05:27 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I haven't got time for photographic work tonight... but will update tomorrow. Under magnification, the "blank toggle" appears to have had the manufacturer's mark ground off, but there is trace evidence of a serial number that may match. This could mean that the toggle was ground to hide the fact that the toggle is not original. I will finish my photo forensics tomorrow and post my findings... In the meantime, it looks like a great shooter __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-04-2003, 05:47 PM	#14
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Ed..."it's not uncommon too find to find a #3 and sometimes a #4" mag in police Luger rigs??? man I need too start going too the gun shows in your area. I would say that a matched, not forced matched, but original #3 and #4 mag is near unheard of.

06-04-2003, 08:37 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Agreed, I have seen one or two 3's in person, have one on my police Luger, but have never seen a #4. But hey, the book says.... (and if I had other police guns to compare with my scant knowledge...) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> I would say that a matched, not forced matched, but original #3 and #4 mag is near unheard of.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So a forced match older magazine is what? Several of my magazines are aluminum based and I find that acceptable from what I have read? My #3 is one and is serial numbered to my gun and if forced matched, is a old beat up one. So instead of saying it is not uncommon, I should have said, it is not unheard of to see a 3 or 4. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-05-2003, 10:53 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	After examining the toggle photograph in high magnification... At point "A" we can see that the last two digits of the serial number is 81 as shown on the extractor... There is a faint trace of a two digit serial number remaining on the toggle... the number can't be an 81 because the bottom of both digits is rounded and not flat as the bottom of the one should appear. At point "B" it appears that the chamfer or bevels that normally appear on the top sides of the toggle have been reduced in size (probably by milling or surface grinding... this would account for the lack of a manufacturer's stamp in the middle of the toggle... the fact that there is a trace of the serial number digits but no manufacturer's mark indicates to me that the grinding operation was not perfectly in a plane with the flat surface of the toggle... in other words, the serial numbered end of the toggle was just a tad low when the grinding operation took place... so the toggle ends up with a new flat surface but not in the same plane as the original... At the opposite end of the toggle (point "C"), we can see uneven marks where the milling or grinding operation ended near the toggle to breechblock joint... So, my conclusion (read that OPINION) is that based on the auction photograph, this toggle has been replaced by one of WW2 manufacture and the mark to identify the maker has been removed to hide that fact from the uninformed... This would not be a something done by a previous owner with a file... this had to be done by a machinist or a gunsmith with appropriate power tools. Because of reflection, there is no way to determine how close the new finish matches the finish on the rest of the gun. I classify this gun as a very nice looking SHOOTER... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> not a collectable (at this point in time). That's my and I'm stickin' to it... unless someone can come up with a really good reason to change... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-05-2003, 03:54 PM	#17
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Mr.Sabato, If this was just a good shooter, what would be a fair price on the Luger? I have asked for the reserve on this, but he will not tell me. As I do not wish to pay more than I have to, can anyone say anything about price? Also Mr Sabato, do you see anything else wrong about this gun? I was told that the numbers inside were also matching, but he did not say which ones.(if he? muck-muck the toggle maybe the same for rest of the gun) Thank you for looking in to this for me as I know your time is important and you can not look at everything that posts. Thank you __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

06-05-2003, 04:32 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	MG, "Mr. Sabato" is my father ... please call me John. I responded to your questions about this piece because I enjoy examining photographs of Lugers, and I have studied them for several decades... I am not an author on Lugers, nor do I consider myself an "expert" -- but I am very knowledgeable about much Luger history and manufacturing processes and gunsmithing techniques...because I have done a lot of reading of Luger books written by people that are considered experts. I am also very capable with a computer (make my living with one) and digital photographic techniques to improve detail... this makes looking at auction photographs an interesting pasttime for me... Most auctioneers will not tell you their reserve price...if they did, it would serve them no purpose... if they don't get their reserve price, they just re-list the item and try again. If they hold out long enough, they are gambling that someone will come up with the money. The value of this or any other gun depends on the condition of the gun and many other factors...originality of the parts, finish, consequential damage from handling, the rarity of the model and many other things, but especially what is the gun worth to YOU? I cannot guide you on what value this gun has for you... If this gun were to complete some kind of collection for a person, it would have more value that for someone who just wanted a long barreled Luger to shoot... You have already stated that the rear sight is not matching and I have explained that the front toggle appears to be non-matching... that makes this a parts gun. It is not a collectable gun, but to someone whose grandfather used one in World War one it might be exactly what they are looking for to honor their memory and they would pay a bunch more than someone who just wants to shoot one. I bought both of the Lugers that I own over two decades ago for less than a total of $200. That was a LOT of money to me back then (almost half a month's pay), but I wanted those Lugers really bad. You will have to decide what the gun is worth to you before you bid. Perhaps you need to do a lot more research before you are ready to buy an auction gun. Like for the next few months, you should watch every auction of an artillery and catalog the sales price and the condition of each one... then come up with your own statistics on value and look for the next one that meets your needs... AND your wallet! In the meantime, you can offer a price of $25.00 above the current bid until you reach the limit of your budget for your "shooter" -- There is no magic rule for buying old guns... buy the best you can afford, and when you can, trade up to improve your collection. If you get outbid, then I am afraid it wasn't your turn...maybe next time. Good Luck. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-05-2003, 07:20 PM	#19
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	MG, This whole thing looks monkeyed with. The aluminum bottom mags look parkerized. The wood bottom you can see is blued? The toggle being ground down far enough to erase the maker mark is dangerous to shoot in my opinion. It could have cracked there and been welded and thusly the maker mark obliterated. (worse case scenario) The mag pouch is worth $150 the mags maybe $50@ so $350 for accesories. That leaves $700 for an unsafe shooter, IMO. If I were looking for an artillery I would keep my money in my pocket untill I found one I could shoot without worrying about the toggle or the bad pitting I see. It's your money but for just a bit more I would say you could find a much better pistol if you had some patience. I always believe it's better to spend a little more to buy quality and when you go to sell you will not have to apologize for anything wrong with the pistol. My advice for this rig is NO. Jerry Burney While I am at it I feel it is courteous to leave your name when communicating with fellow Forum members. Why more people do not do this I cannot understand. Simply sign, at least your first name at the end and everyone has a reference for future communications. Thanks, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."