Who was the joker that invented P08 sights?

M38 · 06-05-2002, 10:21 PM

I just got my first Luger last night, a 1918 Erfurt shooter and I love it, but the sights stink. Does anybody know what the history is behind the v rear sight and inverted v front sight? The same opticaly chalenging sight system is used on the Russian 1891 Mosin Nagant and Mauser K98 rifles which makes me think that there must be some theory behind the concept.

Steve Lempitski · 06-05-2002, 10:43 PM

Sights? With a luger just point it like a shotgun

Pete Ebbink · 06-05-2002, 10:50 PM

Hello M38,

Do not have an answer for you, but the Swiss Bern folks routinely reworked the rear v-sight for a u-shaped sight to better enhance target acquisition...

Brandon · 06-05-2002, 11:50 PM

Listen to Pete Swiss Lugers are his speciality! [img]smile.gif[/img]

BILL · 06-06-2002, 12:19 AM

I think that the 'joker' who invented the sights on the Luger was the grand master himself, Georg Luger. Actually, notched v sights were around long before he was ever born but I am sure he had some input into what went on his pistol. Anyone seen any Lugers that predate the notched v rear sight?

Dan Clemons · 06-06-2002, 01:24 AM

I don't know who designed the front V sights. I think the problem is black on black is hard to sight. A dab of white paint on the front ought to improve target acquisition don't you think?

Dan

Thor · 06-06-2002, 09:20 AM

I have seen several shooter Lugers with the rear toggle sight filed into a rectangular notch that is the same depth as the original V and 0.1" wide, it really helps you see the front sight better as does a really good pair of progress bifocals (my rememdy) If you can focus on the front sight good you can usually fire the pistol well also. I shot this group with Bill Stanley's American Eagle with the original sights so it can be done with practice and good eye sight and some getting used to the trigger pull, long and mushy.

Herb · 06-06-2002, 01:22 PM

The height of the front sight was originally set for a 'zero' of fifty meters but tests showed that the range actually varied between 80 and 120 meters. The front sight was then set for a height of 15.8 +/- 0.3mm to optomise the range. On the 12th of June 1913 the War Ministry ordered that the sights would be changed/corrected concurrent with the addition of the hold open device. For the pistols that already had the hold open, the sight modification was corrected by unit armorers. I would imagine this modification added another stamp to the Luger somewhere.

Frank · 06-06-2002, 02:13 PM

Someone must have asked the same question in 1938 when the Walther P.38 was adopted. The sights are a bit better, from a visual viewpoint. I can still out shoot a decent P.38 with the "improved" sights with a dirty old Luger and it's "crummy" sights. [img]confused.gif[/img]

MarkC · 06-06-2002, 04:07 PM

The trigger pull on all of my Lugers are FAR better than the P38's. I can hit the bullseye at 25 yards with my Lugers more often although I have a byf 43 P38 that comes dang close!

John Sabato · 06-06-2002, 05:15 PM

If you classify your Luger as a shooter that can be modified to suit your tastes, then consider having the rear notch squared like modern pistol sights and replace the front sight blade with a replacement sight for a P-38. The P-38 front sight fits a luger dovetail perfectly! and Viola! square sight picture on the finest of guns!

You can get the front sights from a variety of sources... Tom Heller should be a place to start...

Let us know how you make out...

Dwight Gruber · 06-09-2002, 04:02 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Dan Clemons:
<strong>I don't know who designed the front V sights. I think the problem is black on black is hard to sight. A dab of white paint on the front ought to improve target acquisition don't you think?

Dan</strong><hr></blockquote>

On my shooters, I put just a dab of paint from one of those silver calligraphy pens on the very tip of the sight. It improved my shooting measurably, reduced the size of my groups by about half.

--Dwight

Bud · 06-11-2002, 01:21 AM

I just sent in a shooter luger upper assembly to get rebarreled to six inch barrel, to Hugh Clarks', and he is going to do a square notching of the rear sight for a few dollars more, which will help out sighting in. Don't matter on that luger, since the toggle is a "42", when it should be s/42, and its' original mismatched numbers are electropenciled out.
They say with a six inch barrel, longer sight radius makes it easier to shoot, and with a squared off rear sight, it might be just a joy to shoot.

saxman · 07-26-2002, 11:13 PM

Sights? I thought the notch thing on the back was a can opener (LOL). I want to shoot mine, but dang if I'm going to take a file to it. I'll just go with what it came with. Good enough for the Weimar Republic, good enough for me!

Doubs · 07-27-2002, 12:29 AM

Bud, I just got my newly barreled receiver back from Hugh and the square notch improves the sighting significantly. The front sight on the new barrel is also flat sided and gives a better picture. I'll take it to the range tomorrow to see what it'll do. The test target Hugh sent with it looks pretty good.

AGE · 07-27-2002, 01:25 AM

Saxman,

Seriously, Thor is correct in his response above. I don't know how old you are or how your eyesight is, but if you can see the sights (and focus on the front sight) the Luger sights are usable. Try progressive lenses or get a single lens for the shooting eye that gives a sharp sight picture. Let the target get fuzzy, hold at 6 o'clock on a black bullseye target and squeeze slowly.

Kyrie · 07-27-2002, 03:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by M38:
<strong>I just got my first Luger last night, a 1918 Erfurt shooter and I love it, but the sights stink. Does anybody know what the history is behind the v rear sight and inverted v front sight? The same opticaly chalenging sight system is used on the Russian 1891 Mosin Nagant and Mauser K98 rifles which makes me think that there must be some theory behind the concept.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Folks!

The sights on a Luger, like those on a Model 1898 Mauser, are designed for very precise work at ranges that today are be considered insanely long. The very fine front sight occludes very little of the target, while the point presents a very precise indicator of the point of impact. Given the military doctrine of the time (which was slow, accurate, aimed fire) these sights were perfect.

In my younger years I had no difficulty hitting soda cans out well past 100 yards with a Luger, or one gallon paint cans out past 500 yards with a M98 rifle.

They are not, however, perfect for the aging eyes of many (including myself) forum members. Our older eyes have lost the youthful flexibility needed to take advantage of these wonderful sights. Many of us are at that point in our lives where even the big, blocky, sights popular today are becoming hard to see, or use :-(

IÃ¢??m at that point in my life that I just put the black blur that are the sights on the black blur that is the target, squeeze, and hope for the best :-)

Warm regards,

Kyrie

AGE · 07-28-2002, 01:07 AM

Kyrie,

Been there, done that. I was about to change to red dot electronic sights until I tried the progressive glasses. I can shoot a handgun like a kid again (it didn't help anything else).

M38 · 08-03-2002, 07:45 AM

Kyrie, thanks for the explanation!

06-05-2002, 10:21 PM	#1
M38 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern VA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Who was the joker that invented P08 sights? I just got my first Luger last night, a 1918 Erfurt shooter and I love it, but the sights stink. Does anybody know what the history is behind the v rear sight and inverted v front sight? The same opticaly chalenging sight system is used on the Russian 1891 Mosin Nagant and Mauser K98 rifles which makes me think that there must be some theory behind the concept.

06-05-2002, 10:43 PM	#2
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Sights? With a luger just point it like a shotgun __________________ SJL

06-06-2002, 12:19 AM	#5
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think that the 'joker' who invented the sights on the Luger was the grand master himself, Georg Luger. Actually, notched v sights were around long before he was ever born but I am sure he had some input into what went on his pistol. Anyone seen any Lugers that predate the notched v rear sight? __________________ *"Take me to your Luger!"*

06-06-2002, 01:24 AM	#6
Dan Clemons User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grants Pass, OR Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't know who designed the front V sights. I think the problem is black on black is hard to sight. A dab of white paint on the front ought to improve target acquisition don't you think? Dan __________________ Loving Lugers

06-06-2002, 09:20 AM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I have seen several shooter Lugers with the rear toggle sight filed into a rectangular notch that is the same depth as the original V and 0.1" wide, it really helps you see the front sight better as does a really good pair of progress bifocals (my rememdy) If you can focus on the front sight good you can usually fire the pistol well also. I shot this group with Bill Stanley's American Eagle with the original sights so it can be done with practice and good eye sight and some getting used to the trigger pull, long and mushy. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-05-2002, 10:50 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello M38, Do not have an answer for you, but the Swiss Bern folks routinely reworked the rear v-sight for a u-shaped sight to better enhance target acquisition...

06-05-2002, 11:50 PM	#4
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Listen to Pete Swiss Lugers are his speciality! [img]smile.gif[/img]

06-06-2002, 01:22 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The height of the front sight was originally set for a 'zero' of fifty meters but tests showed that the range actually varied between 80 and 120 meters. The front sight was then set for a height of 15.8 +/- 0.3mm to optomise the range. On the 12th of June 1913 the War Ministry ordered that the sights would be changed/corrected concurrent with the addition of the hold open device. For the pistols that already had the hold open, the sight modification was corrected by unit armorers. I would imagine this modification added another stamp to the Luger somewhere. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-06-2002, 02:13 PM	#9
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Someone must have asked the same question in 1938 when the Walther P.38 was adopted. The sights are a bit better, from a visual viewpoint. I can still out shoot a decent P.38 with the "improved" sights with a dirty old Luger and it's "crummy" sights. [img]confused.gif[/img]

06-06-2002, 04:07 PM	#10
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	The trigger pull on all of my Lugers are FAR better than the P38's. I can hit the bullseye at 25 yards with my Lugers more often although I have a byf 43 P38 that comes dang close!

06-06-2002, 05:15 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	If you classify your Luger as a shooter that can be modified to suit your tastes, then consider having the rear notch squared like modern pistol sights and replace the front sight blade with a replacement sight for a P-38. The P-38 front sight fits a luger dovetail perfectly! and Viola! square sight picture on the finest of guns! You can get the front sights from a variety of sources... Tom Heller should be a place to start... Let us know how you make out... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-09-2002, 04:02 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,313 Times in 430 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Dan Clemons: <strong>I don't know who designed the front V sights. I think the problem is black on black is hard to sight. A dab of white paint on the front ought to improve target acquisition don't you think? Dan</strong><hr></blockquote> On my shooters, I put just a dab of paint from one of those silver calligraphy pens on the very tip of the sight. It improved my shooting measurably, reduced the size of my groups by about half. --Dwight

06-11-2002, 01:21 AM	#13
Bud User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just sent in a shooter luger upper assembly to get rebarreled to six inch barrel, to Hugh Clarks', and he is going to do a square notching of the rear sight for a few dollars more, which will help out sighting in. Don't matter on that luger, since the toggle is a "42", when it should be s/42, and its' original mismatched numbers are electropenciled out. They say with a six inch barrel, longer sight radius makes it easier to shoot, and with a squared off rear sight, it might be just a joy to shoot.

07-26-2002, 11:13 PM	#14
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sights? I thought the notch thing on the back was a can opener (LOL). I want to shoot mine, but dang if I'm going to take a file to it. I'll just go with what it came with. Good enough for the Weimar Republic, good enough for me! __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

07-27-2002, 12:29 AM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	Bud, I just got my newly barreled receiver back from Hugh and the square notch improves the sighting significantly. The front sight on the new barrel is also flat sided and gives a better picture. I'll take it to the range tomorrow to see what it'll do. The test target Hugh sent with it looks pretty good.

07-27-2002, 01:25 AM	#16
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Saxman, Seriously, Thor is correct in his response above. I don't know how old you are or how your eyesight is, but if you can see the sights (and focus on the front sight) the Luger sights are usable. Try progressive lenses or get a single lens for the shooting eye that gives a sharp sight picture. Let the target get fuzzy, hold at 6 o'clock on a black bullseye target and squeeze slowly. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-27-2002, 03:20 PM	#17
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by M38: <strong>I just got my first Luger last night, a 1918 Erfurt shooter and I love it, but the sights stink. Does anybody know what the history is behind the v rear sight and inverted v front sight? The same opticaly chalenging sight system is used on the Russian 1891 Mosin Nagant and Mauser K98 rifles which makes me think that there must be some theory behind the concept.</strong><hr></blockquote> Hi Folks! The sights on a Luger, like those on a Model 1898 Mauser, are designed for very precise work at ranges that today are be considered insanely long. The very fine front sight occludes very little of the target, while the point presents a very precise indicator of the point of impact. Given the military doctrine of the time (which was slow, accurate, aimed fire) these sights were perfect. In my younger years I had no difficulty hitting soda cans out well past 100 yards with a Luger, or one gallon paint cans out past 500 yards with a M98 rifle. They are not, however, perfect for the aging eyes of many (including myself) forum members. Our older eyes have lost the youthful flexibility needed to take advantage of these wonderful sights. Many of us are at that point in our lives where even the big, blocky, sights popular today are becoming hard to see, or use :-( IÃ¢??m at that point in my life that I just put the black blur that are the sights on the black blur that is the target, squeeze, and hope for the best :-) Warm regards, Kyrie

07-28-2002, 01:07 AM	#18
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kyrie, Been there, done that. I was about to change to red dot electronic sights until I tried the progressive glasses. I can shoot a handgun like a kid again (it didn't help anything else). __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

08-03-2002, 07:45 AM	#19
M38 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern VA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kyrie, thanks for the explanation!