Artillery Fired Unexpectedly

conchojack · 09-18-2002, 11:16 PM

While demonstrating my Artillery, Serial # 3494, 1918 stamped on top of the barrel, the toggle hung open on a misfed round. I was using a clip from my P-08 Luger which has a much weaker spring than the one with the Artillery. The round appeared to be started corectly so I palmed the toggle down to close it. It loaded the round and unexpectedly fired. At the time I was holding the Luger grip in my left hand and slapped the toggle closed with the butt of my palm. We were very fortunate that the Pistol was pointing downrange and all observers were behind the shooter. The trigger was not touched and the applied force was directly down on the toggle. It should not have fired. The 9mm ammunition was Winchester solid copper clad. One other possibly unrelated fact. The toggle had not locked open upon emptying the clip. The clip was reloaded, inserted into the Luger, and the toggle was pulled back and released to load the next round. This is when the misfeed occurred.
Why do you think this Luger fired?
conchojack

Doug G. · 09-18-2002, 11:32 PM

You don't say if this gun has ever done this before? Have you or anyone else tried to improve the trigger pull? My best guess is that either the firing pin got stuck or the sear bar spring let the sear disengage when you slapped the toggle home. I don't think that it would be the ammo as Winchester primers are not all that soft. The weak mag spring rather than the ammo would probably cause the toggle not to lock open.

Lugerdoc · 09-19-2002, 08:30 AM

cjack, It sounds as though the overlap of your firing pin with the internal shoulder of the sear (trigger bar) was not sufficient to withstand your hit on the toggle assy. Perhaps something as simple as a stonger sear spring might solve this problem, but more than likely your need either a different firing pin or sear. If your LPO8 is all matching, rather than just changing parts, you can find a gunsmith to either built up these parts or square up the mating surfaces. Tom H.

conchojack · 09-19-2002, 10:31 AM

Doug and Lugerdoc, your response is most appreciated. It seems logical that the seer did not catch well on the firing pin. I will have Hugh dissect the Artillery and see if he can duplicate the problem. The Artillery had never suffered a clip misfeed before but I think this is the first time I used a different clip in it. Normally I use the clip provided with the Luger. It must have been something unique to having brute forced the breech closed.

When the safety is applied would that force the seer further onto the firing pin catch?
conchojack

John Sabato · 09-19-2002, 11:30 AM

No, applying the safety should only prevent the sear engagement from being lost... and thus "safe"

It does not normally press the sear 'back' into the correct position.

Having the gun checked by Hugh or any another Lugersmith is a good idea if you are not comfortable with the current safety posture of your Luger. Can you duplicate the accidental firing with a empty but primed case as the feed object? (only attempt this outdoors and with the gun pointed in a safe direction because a primer report indoors is much louder than you think)

If you can duplicate the occurance, I would say that your sear engagement is insufficient and the gun should be repaired by a gunsmith.

Thats my

,

Stevie · 09-19-2002, 08:25 PM

I had similar experience with a FN hi power 9mm years ago. The gun jammed, cartridge looked like it would chamber, slapped the slide shut and she went off! I stopped shooting, gatherd the empty cases and went home. When I looked things over I found an empty case with a high primer and no firingpin mark. Had a slamfire,bad cartridge.I hope that's all that' wrong here.

Good luck, Stevie.

estevewatson@juno.com · 10-06-2002, 10:24 AM

I had a similar problem with one of my artilleries. After replacing the trigger bar with a new one, the problem persisted. I then tried a firing pin from one of my other Lugers, which cured the problem. I am relieved that it was a firing pin (which I don't believe is a numbered part)rather than the trigger bar (which is). You might try such a switch to see if the problem gets cured. I also strongly support the comment that a competent Lugersmith should be consulted. This is one type of failure that is too dangerous to ignore.

Dwight Gruber · 10-06-2002, 11:34 AM

[quote]Originally posted by estevewatson@juno.com:
<strong>I am relieved that it was a firing pin (which I don't believe is a numbered part).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fyi, firing pins--at least after 1910--were serial-numbered to the gun (1910 directive, see Gortz & Bryans or Still). It is for this reason that many correspondents here use a replacement firing pin if they are going to shoot their Lugers.

--Dwight

09-18-2002, 11:16 PM	#1
conchojack User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Artillery Fired Unexpectedly While demonstrating my Artillery, Serial # 3494, 1918 stamped on top of the barrel, the toggle hung open on a misfed round. I was using a clip from my P-08 Luger which has a much weaker spring than the one with the Artillery. The round appeared to be started corectly so I palmed the toggle down to close it. It loaded the round and unexpectedly fired. At the time I was holding the Luger grip in my left hand and slapped the toggle closed with the butt of my palm. We were very fortunate that the Pistol was pointing downrange and all observers were behind the shooter. The trigger was not touched and the applied force was directly down on the toggle. It should not have fired. The 9mm ammunition was Winchester solid copper clad. One other possibly unrelated fact. The toggle had not locked open upon emptying the clip. The clip was reloaded, inserted into the Luger, and the toggle was pulled back and released to load the next round. This is when the misfeed occurred. Why do you think this Luger fired? conchojack __________________ Sir, not being informed to the highest degree of accuracy, I hesitate to articulate for fear I might deviate from the true course of rectitude.

09-18-2002, 11:32 PM	#2
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	You don't say if this gun has ever done this before? Have you or anyone else tried to improve the trigger pull? My best guess is that either the firing pin got stuck or the sear bar spring let the sear disengage when you slapped the toggle home. I don't think that it would be the ammo as Winchester primers are not all that soft. The weak mag spring rather than the ammo would probably cause the toggle not to lock open. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

09-19-2002, 08:30 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	cjack, It sounds as though the overlap of your firing pin with the internal shoulder of the sear (trigger bar) was not sufficient to withstand your hit on the toggle assy. Perhaps something as simple as a stonger sear spring might solve this problem, but more than likely your need either a different firing pin or sear. If your LPO8 is all matching, rather than just changing parts, you can find a gunsmith to either built up these parts or square up the mating surfaces. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-19-2002, 10:31 AM	#4
conchojack User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doug and Lugerdoc, your response is most appreciated. It seems logical that the seer did not catch well on the firing pin. I will have Hugh dissect the Artillery and see if he can duplicate the problem. The Artillery had never suffered a clip misfeed before but I think this is the first time I used a different clip in it. Normally I use the clip provided with the Luger. It must have been something unique to having brute forced the breech closed. When the safety is applied would that force the seer further onto the firing pin catch? conchojack __________________ Sir, not being informed to the highest degree of accuracy, I hesitate to articulate for fear I might deviate from the true course of rectitude.

09-19-2002, 11:30 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	No, applying the safety should only prevent the sear engagement from being lost... and thus "safe" It does not normally press the sear 'back' into the correct position. Having the gun checked by Hugh or any another Lugersmith is a good idea if you are not comfortable with the current safety posture of your Luger. Can you duplicate the accidental firing with a empty but primed case as the feed object? (only attempt this outdoors and with the gun pointed in a safe direction because a primer report indoors is much louder than you think) If you can duplicate the occurance, I would say that your sear engagement is insufficient and the gun should be repaired by a gunsmith. Thats my , __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-19-2002, 08:25 PM	#6
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I had similar experience with a FN hi power 9mm years ago. The gun jammed, cartridge looked like it would chamber, slapped the slide shut and she went off! I stopped shooting, gatherd the empty cases and went home. When I looked things over I found an empty case with a high primer and no firingpin mark. Had a slamfire,bad cartridge.I hope that's all that' wrong here. Good luck, Stevie.

10-06-2002, 10:24 AM	#7
estevewatson@juno.com User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I had a similar problem with one of my artilleries. After replacing the trigger bar with a new one, the problem persisted. I then tried a firing pin from one of my other Lugers, which cured the problem. I am relieved that it was a firing pin (which I don't believe is a numbered part)rather than the trigger bar (which is). You might try such a switch to see if the problem gets cured. I also strongly support the comment that a competent Lugersmith should be consulted. This is one type of failure that is too dangerous to ignore.

10-06-2002, 11:34 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by estevewatson@juno.com: <strong>I am relieved that it was a firing pin (which I don't believe is a numbered part).</strong><hr></blockquote> Fyi, firing pins--at least after 1910--were serial-numbered to the gun (1910 directive, see Gortz & Bryans or Still). It is for this reason that many correspondents here use a replacement firing pin if they are going to shoot their Lugers. --Dwight