Russian capture / property mark

[Vlim]

Hi,

This mark pictured is present on my late 1937 S/42. As it has been reworked commercially a few years ago, I thought the 'post-war' forum would be the most appropriate place:



Not the cross mark just underneath the letter 'B'. I haven't seen it on any other luger, but the mark is quite common on Russian captured K98 rifles.

The gun in question was reworked by Frankonia, Germany some years ago. Springs were replaced, barrel was replaced with a new East-German spare barrel and the gun was reblued. Small parts are all numbered to the gun and numbering appears to be original.

The gun kept it's original proofs and no extra markings and/or proofs were added, excluding the old East-German crown/N proof on the replacement barrel. A DDR magazine (02/1001), force-matched to the gun was added as well.



After finding confirmation of it's Eastern-European origins, I decided to swap the new Nill-grips for these Russian grips, I thought it was appropriate.

These guns were sold through several German dealer networks and fetched prices of 700 - 900 EUR.

[Herb]

Gerben, I have a 1937 S/42 with that X stamped on the left reciever just in front of the serial number, it 's probably Russian capture also.

[Lugerdoc]

Gerben, The spacing of the numbers on your PO8 frame do not appear WW2 to me, so probably renumbered by the DDR, who replaced the barrel. I believe the the "X" on the front of the frame is also E.German. TH

[Doubs]

I agree with Tom. My 1917 Erfurt E. German rework (with original barrel, BTW) has an "X" on the front of the frame and what appears to be part of a circle around it. It also has the starburst-shield w/number on it and EG plastic bullseye grips. There are two matching EG mags numbered 1 & 2. Not al "X's" IMO indicate Russian capture.

My 1937 Mauser Luger from all indications is a Russian capture pistol but doesn't have an "X" on it anywhere.

IMO, there's much about Russian capture and E. German pistols that we don't know just yet.

[RockinWR]

Doubs,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> IMO, there's much about Russian capture and E. German pistols that we don't know just yet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">* Glad you said that again.
* Unless it is the picture's shadow's, this frame does not look like it has a hump. Don't know of a Mauser "b" block, 1937, S/42 which would not have a "humped" frame. In fact, except for a couple of "repair hole stragglers", the 1937's essentially ceased at the end of the "a" block. Maybe a G date frame was used.
* Wonder if the frame's "X" is indicative of the frame being numerically renumbered to the receiver's digits?? The alpha "b" being leftover undisturbed from a "G" date frame? Would give an indication of which master number was original as the norm is the Frame as the Master. No barrel "X's" as they were always replaced.
* Just some thoughts.
Respectfully,
Bob

[Doubs]

RockinRW, my 1937 S/42 has the Mauser hump. It's serial 7127y and there isn't an "X" anywhere. It's been dip blued and the grips are beech and not original to the pistol although from the same general time period. The magazine is from a year or two later pistol. Except for the mag and grips, everything matches and it's my opinion it's a Russian capture pistol.

My 1917 Erfurt E. German rework with the "X" on the frame appears to be completely original as far as frame numbers go. Oddly, on the left side of the frame just above the front of the trigger guard is the number "16" and the same number "16" appears on the left side of the receiver in the front. Behind that is a partly peened-out sunburst indicating E. German police issue. Behind the sunburst is the serial number in it's normal receiver position. This is one E. German rework that has the original Erfurt barrel with an excellent bore. The sideplate is force-matched.

[Vlim]

Hi,

This gun actually has the 'hump', and the serial number 150B places it neatly into the last months of 1937. 1937 numbering did restart in the last months of 1937, after the 10000z was reached earlier that year. A new series from 1 to about 500b was produced in late 1937. So this gun righteously has both the Mauser-hump and the blued small-parts (although blued over).

What this gun also lacks is the typical 'etched' firing pin number or other non-matching parts normally found on DDR reworks.

As I mentioned earlier, I managed to retrace some steps of this particular piece and the rebarreling was done by the company that reworked these guns a few years ago and they just used DDR-surplus parts (they're still being offered through Frankonia!).

The source of this particular gun is either Russia or Hungary and I'm trying to understand how to tell the different capture-versions apart. I'm confident that the Russian capture mark can also be found on DDR-reworks, makes complete sense. I'm also confident that 150b was not one of the DDR-reworks.

Of course I'd love to see another late-1937 or early-1938 gun in order to compare details.

Some thoughts for now:
-The X on the front gripstrap is interpreted as a russian capture mark. Some of these made their way back into DDR service, others were kept in storage. So we can find DDR guns with the X and without it. We can also find Russian guns with the X and again without it.
-The X does not denote DDR use, nor does it denote Russian use, it only records one-time Russian ownership. Later redistribution of guns means they could have ended up anywhere in the former eastern-block.
-150b fits late 1937 production and unless I see other specimens from the same era with another numbering style, I tend to view numbering as original.
-DDR barrels (including crown-N proof) can be found on non-DDR issued pistols, simply because they are available as spares.

The main objective of my initial posting was to describe a variation that is now commercially available on European markets. Considering the number of mixed reactions, conclusions and comparisons, I'm sure this posting has served it's purpose.

I also hope it will bring a better understanding of former Eastern block storage stock, issued weapons and reworks based on Easter block stock.

Simply identifying a gun as a VoPo (or as not one) seems to be getting more and more difficult

[Lugerdoc]

Warren Buxton in "The P38 Pistol" Vol 3 discusses the DDR defacing marks (X) on page 14 as it applies to P38s. I would imagine that this marking were used the same on the P08s that they used. TH

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
<strong>-DDR barrels (including crown-N proof) can be found on non-DDR issued pistols, simply because they are available as spares.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Gerben,

I find myself wondering why a spare barrel would already be stamped with a firing proof?

--Dwight

[Vlim]

Dwight,

Regulations, or rather working around them. If a barrel has a fire proof on it, it doesn't have to be proofed again

Tom,

I'd expect capture marks on all impounded/captured/marked equipment to be equal. Don't think anyone bothered to make a separate mark for captured K98s, P38's, P08's, etc...

But then again....Logic isn't always part of the equasion...

[Vlim]

Hi Tom,

About the 'defacing marks'. Weren't these just crossed out old serial numbers?

My VoPo has some small parts that were defaced that way. I've seen a number of spare parts from butchered guns that had their numbers crossed out in the same fashion.

The receiver of the VoPo has been renumbered to match the serial number of the frame, the old receiver serial can just be made out. Another interesting observation on that VoPo is that the ORIGINAL serial number of some small parts has been restruck (probably after cleaning).

I did some comparison between the style of the original digits, the restruck DDR digits of the VoPo and the digits found on the S/42. I found that the S/42's digits were consistent with those used by Mauser, that slightly differ from the East-German restruck digits.

Another important bit of information is the presence or absence of contemporary proof marks.

Germany, Russian Federation and Hungary are part of the CIP, (international firearms proofing commission). This commission has an interesting guideline, dating from 1969 onwards. This guideline means that members of the CIP accept proof marks of other CIP members, taking away the need for reproofing of guns that are transported from one CIP member country to another.

Here is the fun bit. The VoPo was proofed in Western Germany (Koln), in 1989, indicating that it was transferred from Eastern-Germany (officially still in existance, those days, also not a CIP member in those days) to Western Germany.

The S/42 has the original German 1937 proofs as well as the DDR crown/N barrel proof. As since 1990 Eastern-Germany ceased to exist and became part of the German Republic again, they automatically joined the CIP and the former East-German 'crown/N' became CIP accepted proof. Russia joined the CIP in 1994.

Basically, this confirms that the S/42 was imported into Germany after 1991 and I strongly lean towards the post-1994 era.

[Dwight Gruber]

Gerben,

Thanks much for the interesting CIP proof information.

--Dwight

[Vlim]

Dwight,

Unfortunately this means that it got a lot more difficult to retrace the path guns took after 1990 and 1994.