Swiss Navy Thread Postings Deleted...

Pete Ebbink · 06-23-2002, 12:52 PM

Just to let all know, that as co-moderator of the Swiss section, I decided to delete the message thread regarding a Forum member's Swiss Navy luger with 7-7/8" bbl.

I became aware of some "flamming" private e-mails bouncing around about the gun in question. The buyer expressed a desire for the thread to end. I intially closed the thread, but the "flames" remained stoked, so I deleted the thread.

I did not want the Forum to be used to possibly degradate the buyer's gun value and likewise to impune a seller's reputation.

It seemed that this luger variation is not well known and some may have concluded, a bit too soon, in the negative.

I have advised the buyer, through private e-mail to continue to search for the gun's heritage with documentation (both from the seller and from other, more objective sources).

The buyer was also invited to re-post the results (both positive or negative) in the future, when appropriate and if he so desired.

I am just learnig this assignment as a "co-moderator"...if some of you feel my actions are a form of inappropriate censorship, please feel free to post your thoughts on how this could have been handled better or differently.

wterrell · 06-23-2002, 01:30 PM

It seems that a flame can be stopped in the private post by putting the flamer on the ignore list. Censorship is terrible. Disagreement is a part of the American way.

I see no reason to delete the thread.

Pete Ebbink · 06-23-2002, 05:49 PM

Hello Terry and Wes,

Terry : yes page 47 of M. Reese's book does show a very similar luger. Also on page 364 of C. Kenyon's "Lugers At Radom" also shows a Swiss, Navy, luger with Abercrombie & Fitch barrel markings.

Wes : You are probably right, I may have hit the delete button too soon. The private e-mails were not coming through the Forum (so I could not opt for the ignore-feature) and rather to indiviual home e-mails. I was just trying to keep it from getting out-of-hand; especially before the buyer and seller had a chance to talk and exchange more information. I will wait for the gun's Owner to decide if he wants the thread resurrected or not... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[img]eek.gif[/img] If he does, I will need to figure out how to un-delete a thread... [img]eek.gif[/img]

Edward Tinker · 06-23-2002, 07:15 PM

Pete, I don't know, I hate censorship, but as a Moderator, I think our job is to say <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> at times and stop a thread if we feel it is getting irate without a specific point.

I do believe in free expression, but for this forum to continue, then there are times when we have to play big-brother. Those people that believe freedom of speech is paramount (as I do), might find this offensive, but unfortunately, I think it will have to be done at times. Wes, I agree completely that agreement and disagreement is healthy and needed, it is when people start to say mean, off-topic and hearsay that we can get into trouble.

Johnny Peppers · 06-23-2002, 08:32 PM

Would it be to simple to assume that the pistol is a Swiss rework of an Imperial Navy Luger? The Imperial Navy proof and acceptance marks with the addition of the Swiss Cross seem to bear this out.
The pistol shown on page 364 of Kenyon's LAR bears a serial number on the left side of the receiver which would seem to rule out an Imperial Navy receiver. It also appears that the stock lug has been added to the frame. It appears to have been made up from parts.

Lodi Jim · 06-24-2002, 02:05 AM

Pete - As the buyer and one who posted the photo that started this mess, I have no problem re-posting this thread. I originally asked that it be ended after someone sent a private email to let me know that he had figured out who the seller was. There were also private emails going on which seemed counter productive to the issue at hand. If the gun proved to be something other than advertised, it was something that the seller and I would have to resolve and nothing would be accomplished by airing that publicly.

It appears from recent postings, the seller was correct, I was wrong. The only thing I dislike more than eating crow is giving apologies Ã¢?? but I owe the seller both.

If anything positive can come out of this is the knowledge that we all need to move more cautiously when critiquing a gun. A challenge to the authenticity of a gun carries with it a challenge to a sellerÃ¢??s integrity.

One final thought, last week someone mentioned trading this gun back to the seller for another. My response was Ã¢??that regardless of all of this, it will remain in my collection and IÃ¢??ll love it Ã¢?? crooked sun and all!Ã¢?Â I have grown quite fond of this Swiss Navy!

Ron Wood · 06-24-2002, 02:42 AM

Well said Jim! Bless your Luger lover heart. We do not always hit the ball out of the park, but every time we get on base, it is really satisfying. I have one or two Lugers that are less than "perfect" as generally accepted by the "experts". But I have enough confidence in the things that are "right" about them that I can unabashedly enjoy them and go on to other things. Keep up the spirit!

John Sabato · 06-24-2002, 04:27 PM

I think it would be a good time for all who participated in the "deleted" thread to review the forum decorum document regarding behavior in these discussion forums and to objectively evaluate if you violated any facet of the rules for participation here.

A forum moderator has FULL authority to edit, lock, or even pull the plug on any thread that he/she feels poses a threat to either a member, a moderator, or this forum.

With that authority comes the responsibility to use good judgement in the exercise of the authority. That is exactly what happened here, and the moderator is to be commended for his actions.

The use of these forums is not a public right, but rather a privilege extended to those who have acknowledged that they know what the rules are, and that they accept enforcement of the rules by the management of this board. First amendment rights do NOT extend to private forums where membership is dependent upon compliance to the rules.

There can be any level of a difference of opinion on any side of an issue as long as there are no flames, or harrassment of any user. These behaviors will not be tolerated on this forum, nor will such behavior be tolerated outside of this forum if you desire to retain your membership privileges here... Evidence of harrassment via email or phone to any member of the forum by another member of the forum will be regarded as a violation of the terms and conditions for use of the forum and the guilty party will will have their posting privileges revoked.

If anyone has any questions about the terms and conditions for the use of the forums, or what behavior is or is not permitted, you may contact me or any moderator or adminstrator privately.

Play nice folks... I doubt there are many here who would enjoy banishment. There is too much fun to be had here and too much to learn to be kept out in the cold...

Thanks,

John D. · 06-25-2002, 12:00 AM

Pete,

You did the right thing. If you feel it was necessary to delete the thread - then it was the right thing to do. For that, you have my appreciation and support.

I just logged in after several days of being entertained by real business and work - and in reading this thread and replies, I would ask that anyone who feels they can do a better job at moderating to please step forward. You see - in the simplest terms - it is easy to cast stones at something you disagree with - BUT it is entirely *different* to moderate a Forum and make a decision that may not "suit all". In fact there are some folks who were fairly adamant about putting in new forums - but, when asked to "moderate them" - they stepped away quickly. I wonder why?

Simply - moderating a Forum isn't easy. It doesn't come with an "instruction manual". It doesn't come from years of experience. Rather - judgment comes from a feeling from what is right and what isn't.

Pete, thanks for your decision. And thanks for standing up for what you believe are the right things to do. And thanks for stepping up to a thankless job of moderating a Forum. I wish there were more like you.

As for me ? Pete, you did the right thing.

Strider · 06-25-2002, 03:24 PM

John S. & John D.
Well spoken both of you. Thanks for all the hard work you guys have put in to this forum including all the other moderators. Maybe we should consider giving you guys that 10% raise that was put on hold earlier. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Sid.

John Sabato · 06-25-2002, 03:54 PM

thanks Sid,

The truth be known, it is a labor of love...(besides I already turned down a 50% raise in pay to transfer to another board <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

ANY percent of nuthin is still nuthin... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Pete Ebbink · 06-25-2002, 09:00 PM

Hello All,

Thanks for the feedback on my thread deletion...and thanks to you, Jim Elson, for coming back and letting us know that things worked out between you and the seller.

I have heard that C.Kenyon's upcoming luger book will carry a few more photos of other Swiss Navy lugers...so your luger will have more company.

Rather than trying to figure out how to un-delete the original message thread, might we ask you, Jim Elson, to post your photos again on this thread, and then I can "end" the thread. This way some of us can enjoy looking at your luger from time to time...

p.s. I have been "unplugged" while traveling for 2-days until I found a "clean and wired" hotel to my liking. The operative word here is "clean".
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Lodi Jim · 06-25-2002, 11:10 PM

Here we go again!

Pete Ebbink · 06-26-2002, 12:17 AM

Hello Jim,

Thanks for reposting your Swiss Navy !!!

Your last photo in the series did not post.

Can you check the ID string in the name of your photo file and revised in the "edit" function ?

p.s. I sent you a private e-mail via the Forum. Are you accepting PM's ?

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

06-23-2002, 12:52 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Swiss Navy Thread Postings Deleted... Just to let all know, that as co-moderator of the Swiss section, I decided to delete the message thread regarding a Forum member's Swiss Navy luger with 7-7/8" bbl. I became aware of some "flamming" private e-mails bouncing around about the gun in question. The buyer expressed a desire for the thread to end. I intially closed the thread, but the "flames" remained stoked, so I deleted the thread. I did not want the Forum to be used to possibly degradate the buyer's gun value and likewise to impune a seller's reputation. It seemed that this luger variation is not well known and some may have concluded, a bit too soon, in the negative. I have advised the buyer, through private e-mail to continue to search for the gun's heritage with documentation (both from the seller and from other, more objective sources). The buyer was also invited to re-post the results (both positive or negative) in the future, when appropriate and if he so desired. I am just learnig this assignment as a "co-moderator"...if some of you feel my actions are a form of inappropriate censorship, please feel free to post your thoughts on how this could have been handled better or differently.

06-23-2002, 01:30 PM	#2
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It seems that a flame can be stopped in the private post by putting the flamer on the ignore list. Censorship is terrible. Disagreement is a part of the American way. I see no reason to delete the thread. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-23-2002, 07:15 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,931 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Pete, I don't know, I hate censorship, but as a Moderator, I think our job is to say <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> at times and stop a thread if we feel it is getting irate without a specific point. I do believe in free expression, but for this forum to continue, then there are times when we have to play big-brother. Those people that believe freedom of speech is paramount (as I do), might find this offensive, but unfortunately, I think it will have to be done at times. Wes, I agree completely that agreement and disagreement is healthy and needed, it is when people start to say mean, off-topic and hearsay that we can get into trouble. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-24-2002, 02:42 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	Well said Jim! Bless your Luger lover heart. We do not always hit the ball out of the park, but every time we get on base, it is really satisfying. I have one or two Lugers that are less than "perfect" as generally accepted by the "experts". But I have enough confidence in the things that are "right" about them that I can unabashedly enjoy them and go on to other things. Keep up the spirit! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-24-2002, 04:27 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I think it would be a good time for all who participated in the "deleted" thread to review the forum decorum document regarding behavior in these discussion forums and to objectively evaluate if you violated any facet of the rules for participation here. A forum moderator has FULL authority to edit, lock, or even pull the plug on any thread that he/she feels poses a threat to either a member, a moderator, or this forum. With that authority comes the responsibility to use good judgement in the exercise of the authority. That is exactly what happened here, and the moderator is to be commended for his actions. The use of these forums is not a public right, but rather a privilege extended to those who have acknowledged that they know what the rules are, and that they accept enforcement of the rules by the management of this board. First amendment rights do NOT extend to private forums where membership is dependent upon compliance to the rules. There can be any level of a difference of opinion on any side of an issue as long as there are no flames, or harrassment of any user. These behaviors will not be tolerated on this forum, nor will such behavior be tolerated outside of this forum if you desire to retain your membership privileges here... Evidence of harrassment via email or phone to any member of the forum by another member of the forum will be regarded as a violation of the terms and conditions for use of the forum and the guilty party will will have their posting privileges revoked. If anyone has any questions about the terms and conditions for the use of the forums, or what behavior is or is not permitted, you may contact me or any moderator or adminstrator privately. Play nice folks... I doubt there are many here who would enjoy banishment. There is too much fun to be had here and too much to learn to be kept out in the cold... Thanks, __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-23-2002, 05:49 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Terry and Wes, Terry : yes page 47 of M. Reese's book does show a very similar luger. Also on page 364 of C. Kenyon's "Lugers At Radom" also shows a Swiss, Navy, luger with Abercrombie & Fitch barrel markings. Wes : You are probably right, I may have hit the delete button too soon. The private e-mails were not coming through the Forum (so I could not opt for the ignore-feature) and rather to indiviual home e-mails. I was just trying to keep it from getting out-of-hand; especially before the buyer and seller had a chance to talk and exchange more information. I will wait for the gun's Owner to decide if he wants the thread resurrected or not... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> [img]eek.gif[/img] If he does, I will need to figure out how to un-delete a thread... [img]eek.gif[/img]

06-23-2002, 08:32 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Would it be to simple to assume that the pistol is a Swiss rework of an Imperial Navy Luger? The Imperial Navy proof and acceptance marks with the addition of the Swiss Cross seem to bear this out. The pistol shown on page 364 of Kenyon's LAR bears a serial number on the left side of the receiver which would seem to rule out an Imperial Navy receiver. It also appears that the stock lug has been added to the frame. It appears to have been made up from parts.

06-24-2002, 02:05 AM	#6
Lodi Jim User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 65 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete - As the buyer and one who posted the photo that started this mess, I have no problem re-posting this thread. I originally asked that it be ended after someone sent a private email to let me know that he had figured out who the seller was. There were also private emails going on which seemed counter productive to the issue at hand. If the gun proved to be something other than advertised, it was something that the seller and I would have to resolve and nothing would be accomplished by airing that publicly. It appears from recent postings, the seller was correct, I was wrong. The only thing I dislike more than eating crow is giving apologies Ã¢?? but I owe the seller both. If anything positive can come out of this is the knowledge that we all need to move more cautiously when critiquing a gun. A challenge to the authenticity of a gun carries with it a challenge to a sellerÃ¢??s integrity. One final thought, last week someone mentioned trading this gun back to the seller for another. My response was Ã¢??that regardless of all of this, it will remain in my collection and IÃ¢??ll love it Ã¢?? crooked sun and all!Ã¢?Â I have grown quite fond of this Swiss Navy!

06-25-2002, 12:00 AM	#9
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Pete, You did the right thing. If you feel it was necessary to delete the thread - then it was the right thing to do. For that, you have my appreciation and support. I just logged in after several days of being entertained by real business and work - and in reading this thread and replies, I would ask that anyone who feels they can do a better job at moderating to please step forward. You see - in the simplest terms - it is easy to cast stones at something you disagree with - BUT it is entirely different to moderate a Forum and make a decision that may not "suit all". In fact there are some folks who were fairly adamant about putting in new forums - but, when asked to "moderate them" - they stepped away quickly. I wonder why? Simply - moderating a Forum isn't easy. It doesn't come with an "instruction manual". It doesn't come from years of experience. Rather - judgment comes from a feeling from what is right and what isn't. Pete, thanks for your decision. And thanks for standing up for what you believe are the right things to do. And thanks for stepping up to a thankless job of moderating a Forum. I wish there were more like you. As for me ? Pete, you did the right thing.

06-25-2002, 03:24 PM	#10
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John S. & John D. Well spoken both of you. Thanks for all the hard work you guys have put in to this forum including all the other moderators. Maybe we should consider giving you guys that 10% raise that was put on hold earlier. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

06-25-2002, 03:54 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	thanks Sid, The truth be known, it is a labor of love...(besides I already turned down a 50% raise in pay to transfer to another board <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> ANY percent of nuthin is still nuthin... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-25-2002, 09:00 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello All, Thanks for the feedback on my thread deletion...and thanks to you, Jim Elson, for coming back and letting us know that things worked out between you and the seller. I have heard that C.Kenyon's upcoming luger book will carry a few more photos of other Swiss Navy lugers...so your luger will have more company. Rather than trying to figure out how to un-delete the original message thread, might we ask you, Jim Elson, to post your photos again on this thread, and then I can "end" the thread. This way some of us can enjoy looking at your luger from time to time... p.s. I have been "unplugged" while traveling for 2-days until I found a "clean and wired" hotel to my liking. The operative word here is "clean". <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

06-25-2002, 11:10 PM	#13
Lodi Jim User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 65 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here we go again!

06-26-2002, 12:17 AM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jim, Thanks for reposting your Swiss Navy !!! Your last photo in the series did not post. Can you check the ID string in the name of your photo file and revised in the "edit" function ? p.s. I sent you a private e-mail via the Forum. Are you accepting PM's ? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />