Mystery Gun

Don · 07-15-2002, 06:15 PM

I was in an Austin gun shop the other day and saw a funny looking Luger. Unfortunately, I didn't think about asking you guys about it at the time and didn't have the presence of mind to write down serial number and proof marks, etc. The first thing I noticed was that it had the Swiss cross on the toggle, but the frame was shaped more the standard P08 -- with more of a curve on the grip than the pictures I've seen of Swiss Lugers. The chamber was unmarked; the safety was labeled "Gesichert." The gun appeared to be matching, but one thing that was unusual to me: on the frame, under the barrel, the word "GERMANY" appeared under the serial number. Is this just a re-numbered parts gun? (They wanted $999.)

07-15-2002, 07:34 PM

lugerholsterrepair · 07-15-2002, 08:03 PM

Don, Perhaps this was a German made Swiss pistol. DWM made many of these before the Swiss took up production of the Swiss Luger. GERMANY is simply an export mark to an English speaking country and this could have have been about the weimar period. May have been a sleeper..PPays to take a close look. Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 07-16-2002, 04:09 AM

Don
Did your "Mystery Luger" look something like the photo below? I have only seen or heard about few Lugers with the toggle marked with the Swiss cross, but I am sure there are more out there. Thor posted a picture of one not too long ago. If so marked, my guess the Luger that you observed might be referred to loosely as a "1920 Swiss Commercial". There are so darned many talented Swiss gunsmiths that in the '20s refurbishing/reworking Lugers was almost a cottage industry (may still be so today!). Some, such as Fluckiger, had enough pride in their product (or as a marketing device) to use an identifying "trademark" on the pieces they produced. Evidently at least one chose to mark the toggles with the Swiss cross.
The example I have started out life as a 1908 model. It was modified by welding up the lower frame web to add a grip safety and spring, with a corresponding thumb safety. The anomaly is that while this frame is also "Gesichert" marked, it is still marked in the upper position and is actually "off safe" when this marking is exposed! When the thumb safety was swapped out for one that worked with the grip safety, the gunsmith did not go the extra step to remark the frame. Other than that, it is nicely done and quite a conversation piece. [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh, by the way, it is not "Germany" marked.

Herb · 07-16-2002, 03:33 PM

Ron, good picture. I found it in Coatanzo's book, he says it is found on the middle toggle on the 1920 Swiss model, but the number he gives for the description is that of a chamber marking?? He calls it the Geneva Cross in sunburst.

John D. · 07-16-2002, 09:28 PM

Ron.....

You have to stop posting pictures of your pieces!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Jeez..... I'm gon'na go broke!!!

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

(PS - Nice pice - now STOP IT!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] )

Ron Wood · 07-16-2002, 09:41 PM

John
Guess I will have to post a pic of my early S-code HK....Oops, I forgot, I traded it for a 1900 Swiss...Oh well. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

John D. · 07-16-2002, 09:54 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
John
Guess I will have to post a pic of my early S-code HK....Oops, I forgot, I traded it for a 1900 Swiss...Oh well. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Yea - well, if I hung around you - I'd be as equally corrupted..!!! LOL!!!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

BTW: Next year, can you help me out? Seriously - don't tell anyone - but I want an early Swiss with a lanyard... No kidding....!!! [img]eek.gif[/img]

Don · 07-16-2002, 11:19 PM

Thanks for all the comments. No, it did not have a grip safety, and the cross was within a shield, not a sun burst.

Don · 07-17-2002, 01:06 AM

There is a picture of the toggle, with the cross in the shield, on a 1929 Swiss Luger on pg. 69 of "Luger Tips" by Michael Reese II. However, none of the rest of the gun in the picture resembled the piece I saw. It appeared to be a standard 9 mm P 08 frame & barrel, unlike the Swiss style frame, 7.65 caliber, and modified safety switch in the book

Hugh · 07-17-2002, 05:15 PM

Ron,

My wife insists that you must stop posting those pictures, she's getting tired of wiping the drool off my chin and shirt front! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Pete Ebbink · 07-17-2002, 09:07 PM

Hello Don,

The Swiss Bern factory made some "transitional" lugers between their 06/1924 model (a P-08 model) and their later 1929 model.

This luger had the top of a 1929 on the frame of the 06/1924 model.

According to Vitorrio Bobba's book, The Swiss Parabellum, these transitional lugers are quite rare...

I will be home this weekend and will plan to scan a photo or two from this book..

It might be worth going back to Austin for a second look...if this gun is a Swiss transitional piece, at $ 999.00 it would be a tremendous buy...

Or it might just be a "parts" gun put together from some P-08 and 1929 Bern parts. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Ron Wood · 07-17-2002, 10:38 PM

John D. & Hugh
OK..OK!! I quit. No more pics. I can't be responsible for broken wallets and wet shirts. Geez, it is tough being a bad influence.... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> .... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Dwight Gruber · 07-18-2002, 01:04 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
John D. & Hugh
OK..OK!! I quit. No more pics. I can't be responsible for broken wallets and wet shirts. Geez, it is tough being a bad influence.... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> .... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Ron, don't you -dare- not post any more pictures! Influence me, influence me! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

--Dwight

Thor · 07-18-2002, 01:33 AM

slurp and burp!

Brandon · 07-18-2002, 01:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:


Ron, don't you -dare- not post any more pictures! Influence me, influence me! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

--Dwight<hr></blockquote>

Sorry John D. and Hugh but...I have to agree with Dwight! I Love them Early Lugers! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Don · 07-19-2002, 12:57 AM

Pete,

I look forward to the photos. I will be in Austin in about a week, and I'll try to swing by for another look. It'd be great to find out it was a rare piece, but doesn't the "Germany" stamped on the frame pretty much disqualify it?

If you'll give me a few pointers about what to look for, I'll go over the gun with a fine toothed comb and report back. Thanks.

Don

Pete Ebbink · 07-20-2002, 01:36 PM

Hello Don,

I was wrong about those Swiss bern 1924/1929 transitional lugers. These did not have the Swiss cross-shield emblem on the front toggle link; rather they had the "Bern W+F" markings...

It might just be a parts gun, after all, as another Forum member sugggested...

Regards,

Pete...

Don · 07-21-2002, 06:06 PM

Beautiful specimen, Pete.

Yep, I'm afraid this gun is a sow's ear instead of a silk purse. The frame is not Swiss-style, there's no grip safety, and of course there's that inscription under the barrel, "GERMANY." However, I am curious about one thing, which is the design of the Swiss cross on the toggle, and your photos were too small to reveal any details. On the gun I saw, the cross was in a shield, but on the other photos posted here, the cross was in a sunburst. The only shield I've seen was in "Luger Tips" by Michale Reese, on a 1929.

Pete Ebbink · 07-21-2002, 11:38 PM

Don,

The DWM Swiss lugers made in 1906 started out with cross-sunburst and then switched to cross-shield (I think around 1909...)

The 1929 cross-shield is a little different that the earlier 1909 cross-shield emblem.

I am away from home, but next week will post/scan some photos to show the difference...(unless another Forum member beats me to this...hint, hint...) <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

07-15-2002, 06:15 PM	#1
Don User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mystery Gun I was in an Austin gun shop the other day and saw a funny looking Luger. Unfortunately, I didn't think about asking you guys about it at the time and didn't have the presence of mind to write down serial number and proof marks, etc. The first thing I noticed was that it had the Swiss cross on the toggle, but the frame was shaped more the standard P08 -- with more of a curve on the grip than the pictures I've seen of Swiss Lugers. The chamber was unmarked; the safety was labeled "Gesichert." The gun appeared to be matching, but one thing that was unusual to me: on the frame, under the barrel, the word "GERMANY" appeared under the serial number. Is this just a re-numbered parts gun? (They wanted $999.)

07-15-2002, 08:03 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,928 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Don, Perhaps this was a German made Swiss pistol. DWM made many of these before the Swiss took up production of the Swiss Luger. GERMANY is simply an export mark to an English speaking country and this could have have been about the weimar period. May have been a sleeper..PPays to take a close look. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-16-2002, 04:09 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Don Did your "Mystery Luger" look something like the photo below? I have only seen or heard about few Lugers with the toggle marked with the Swiss cross, but I am sure there are more out there. Thor posted a picture of one not too long ago. If so marked, my guess the Luger that you observed might be referred to loosely as a "1920 Swiss Commercial". There are so darned many talented Swiss gunsmiths that in the '20s refurbishing/reworking Lugers was almost a cottage industry (may still be so today!). Some, such as Fluckiger, had enough pride in their product (or as a marketing device) to use an identifying "trademark" on the pieces they produced. Evidently at least one chose to mark the toggles with the Swiss cross. The example I have started out life as a 1908 model. It was modified by welding up the lower frame web to add a grip safety and spring, with a corresponding thumb safety. The anomaly is that while this frame is also "Gesichert" marked, it is still marked in the upper position and is actually "off safe" when this marking is exposed! When the thumb safety was swapped out for one that worked with the grip safety, the gunsmith did not go the extra step to remark the frame. Other than that, it is nicely done and quite a conversation piece. [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh, by the way, it is not "Germany" marked. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-16-2002, 03:33 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, good picture. I found it in Coatanzo's book, he says it is found on the middle toggle on the 1920 Swiss model, but the number he gives for the description is that of a chamber marking?? He calls it the Geneva Cross in sunburst. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-16-2002, 09:41 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	John Guess I will have to post a pic of my early S-code HK....Oops, I forgot, I traded it for a 1900 Swiss...Oh well. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-16-2002, 09:28 PM	#6
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Ron..... You have to stop posting pictures of your pieces!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Jeez..... I'm gon'na go broke!!! <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> (PS - Nice pice - now STOP IT!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] )

07-16-2002, 09:54 PM	#8
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>John Guess I will have to post a pic of my early S-code HK....Oops, I forgot, I traded it for a 1900 Swiss...Oh well. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Yea - well, if I hung around you - I'd be as equally corrupted..!!! LOL!!!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] BTW: Next year, can you help me out? Seriously - don't tell anyone - but I want an early Swiss with a lanyard... No kidding....!!! [img]eek.gif[/img]

07-16-2002, 11:19 PM	#9
Don User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all the comments. No, it did not have a grip safety, and the cross was within a shield, not a sun burst.

07-17-2002, 01:06 AM	#10
Don User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is a picture of the toggle, with the cross in the shield, on a 1929 Swiss Luger on pg. 69 of "Luger Tips" by Michael Reese II. However, none of the rest of the gun in the picture resembled the piece I saw. It appeared to be a standard 9 mm P 08 frame & barrel, unlike the Swiss style frame, 7.65 caliber, and modified safety switch in the book

07-17-2002, 05:15 PM	#11
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Ron, My wife insists that you must stop posting those pictures, she's getting tired of wiping the drool off my chin and shirt front! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-17-2002, 09:07 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Don, The Swiss Bern factory made some "transitional" lugers between their 06/1924 model (a P-08 model) and their later 1929 model. This luger had the top of a 1929 on the frame of the 06/1924 model. According to Vitorrio Bobba's book, The Swiss Parabellum, these transitional lugers are quite rare... I will be home this weekend and will plan to scan a photo or two from this book.. It might be worth going back to Austin for a second look...if this gun is a Swiss transitional piece, at $ 999.00 it would be a tremendous buy... Or it might just be a "parts" gun put together from some P-08 and 1929 Bern parts. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

07-17-2002, 10:38 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	John D. & Hugh OK..OK!! I quit. No more pics. I can't be responsible for broken wallets and wet shirts. Geez, it is tough being a bad influence.... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> .... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-18-2002, 01:04 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,313 Times in 430 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>John D. & Hugh OK..OK!! I quit. No more pics. I can't be responsible for broken wallets and wet shirts. Geez, it is tough being a bad influence.... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> .... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Ron, don't you -dare- not post any more pictures! Influence me, influence me! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> --Dwight

07-18-2002, 01:33 AM	#15
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	slurp and burp! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-18-2002, 01:08 PM	#16
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber: <strong> Ron, don't you -dare- not post any more pictures! Influence me, influence me! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> --Dwight</strong><hr></blockquote> Sorry John D. and Hugh but...I have to agree with Dwight! I Love them Early Lugers! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

07-15-2002, 07:34 PM	#2
tacfoley Guest Posts: n/a

07-19-2002, 12:57 AM	#17
Don User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, I look forward to the photos. I will be in Austin in about a week, and I'll try to swing by for another look. It'd be great to find out it was a rare piece, but doesn't the "Germany" stamped on the frame pretty much disqualify it? If you'll give me a few pointers about what to look for, I'll go over the gun with a fine toothed comb and report back. Thanks. Don

07-20-2002, 01:36 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Don, I was wrong about those Swiss bern 1924/1929 transitional lugers. These did not have the Swiss cross-shield emblem on the front toggle link; rather they had the "Bern W+F" markings... It might just be a parts gun, after all, as another Forum member sugggested... Regards, Pete...

07-21-2002, 06:06 PM	#19
Don User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Beautiful specimen, Pete. Yep, I'm afraid this gun is a sow's ear instead of a silk purse. The frame is not Swiss-style, there's no grip safety, and of course there's that inscription under the barrel, "GERMANY." However, I am curious about one thing, which is the design of the Swiss cross on the toggle, and your photos were too small to reveal any details. On the gun I saw, the cross was in a shield, but on the other photos posted here, the cross was in a sunburst. The only shield I've seen was in "Luger Tips" by Michale Reese, on a 1929.

07-21-2002, 11:38 PM	#20
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Don, The DWM Swiss lugers made in 1906 started out with cross-sunburst and then switched to cross-shield (I think around 1909...) The 1929 cross-shield is a little different that the earlier 1909 cross-shield emblem. I am away from home, but next week will post/scan some photos to show the difference...(unless another Forum member beats me to this...hint, hint...) <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />