Significance of Nitro Marking

rabbrt2 · 11-17-2003, 06:45 AM

I am confused regarding the significance of the Nitro marking. From the markings index contained on the site:

"German "Nitro" commercial proof. Found on Lugers produced after 1920."

I have a Erfurt 1913/1920 double date that has military receiver markings but a nitro proof on the barrel. Does this mean that the gun has been rebarreled, or does it mean that the gun was taken out of military use in 1920 and made available to police?

Robert

drbuster · 11-17-2003, 09:18 AM

I believe the C/N proof began to be used with later 1908 commerical production, superseeding "BUG" proofing, thus being much earlier than 1920. My 1908 commercial, #55055 has C/N proofs.

Lugerdoc · 11-17-2003, 09:57 AM

Robert, I would not expect a C/N proofed barrel to be installed as part of a Weimar rework of your WW1 PO8. Most likely what you have is an East German replacement barrel. If this was done in the DDR, there will usually be importer marks somewhere on the pistol. The DDR C/N with be "thinner" than that used in the 1920 and before, and sometimes will have a date under it (eg. 953 for Sept 1953). TH

Dwight Gruber · 11-17-2003, 10:00 AM

Robert,

Without knowing an awful lot more about your Luger--other markings on the barrel, presence of sear safety, etc.--it is only possible to say that it has undergone civilian proof testing.

--Dwight

rabbrt2 · 11-17-2003, 11:30 AM

Ok I think the picture is coming together, the Luger is VOPO, and the barrel is stamped 853 below the nitro mark.

Please provide more detail on the sear safety. I understand that the sear safety was removed when Lugers were placed in service for Police to prevent the gun from accidentally firing after having been taken down. But where is the thing and what does it look like.

Robert

John Sabato · 11-17-2003, 12:24 PM

Robert,

There have been many discussions on the Sear Safety and Magazine safety... Please do a search of the forums (link at the top of the page) and you will find the answers to your questions and graphics to show you what you are looking for.

rabbrt2 · 11-17-2003, 01:11 PM

Thanks John. I looked on the parts drawing but for some reason I am not downloading the parts listing, all I get is the drawing with numbers.

Anyway I will do the search as you suggested. Should have thought of it before.

Robert

John Sabato · 11-17-2003, 01:54 PM

Robert,

Here is one that I remembered:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...=000669#000000

It was the only relevant one in this forum... check each of the other forums with the search function and I know there are a couple of good illustrations on the function of the sear safety because I posted them...

Ron Wood · 11-17-2003, 05:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I understand that the sear safety was removed when Lugers were placed in service for Police to prevent the gun from accidentally firing after having been taken down. <hr /></blockquote>Actually Robert, the sear safety was ADDED to the Luger for the reason you stated.

Doubs · 11-17-2003, 07:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rabbrt2:
Ok I think the picture is coming together, the Luger is VOPO, and the barrel is stamped 853 below the nitro mark. Robert<hr /></blockquote>I've read that the "853" indicates that the barrel was either made or installed in August, 1953. FWIW as I have no positive proof that the information is correct.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-18-2003, 12:28 AM

Rabbert2, The Crown N was used when smokeless propellent was used to proof the pistol. The Crown U was stamped when black powder was used to proof it. I guess this was what you originally asked about? Jerry Burney

Dwight Gruber · 11-18-2003, 02:05 AM

Um...a bit of pedantic detail here...

There are a number of different Crown/N
and C/U conventions.

The 1892 German proof law specified three markings, Crown/B, Crown/U, and Crown/G, to be used. C/B and C/U were stamped on the barrel, receiver, and breechblock of 1900-1906 Lugers; the C/B signified power-proof, C/U (for Untersuchung) signified inspection. C/G was only found on the barrel, G (Gezogen) meaning rifled.(Costanzo, p.196 & 206)

In 1906 a new proof law was introduced, Crown/N replacing the C/B,U,G marks. C/N signified nitro proof. This proof was applied to Lugers until 1930. (Costanzo, p.201)

Crown/U was the DWM/Mauser Oberndorf commercial proof found on Lugers manufactured from 1930-1933. A C/U with a different crown was used as the Mauser commercial proof from 1934-1939. (Costanzo, p.192 & 193)

In 1950 the East Germans instituted a Crown/U as an inspection mark at Suhl, and a Crown/N as the Suhl nitro proof. (Costanzo, p.164 & 203)

Although there is a lot of correspondence with N and U, the crowns are all quite different and can be differentiated in the context of the pistol on which it resides.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 11-18-2003, 10:50 AM

Warren Buxton discusses the DDR dating codes in his "The P38 Pistol" Vol 3. I've also observed that many of the DDR reworks had the frame and trigger bar drilled for the sear safety, which they never installed. All of the unused spare DDR trigger bars that I purchased from Germany, were drilled for the sear safety post. TH

John Sabato · 11-18-2003, 01:49 PM

Tom, if they didn't have the blueprints, I would wager that the sample gun they used to reverse engineer the manufacturing processes had that hole for the sear safety and no one ever questioned what it was for... if the pattern part had the hole... they all got one...

Just my

rabbrt2 · 11-19-2003, 03:32 AM

Jerry,

Actually I was trying to figure out if the barrel on this Luger was original, but it appears from the posts that it is not, as it has a C/N over 853 (August 1953).

Robert

Dwight Gruber · 11-19-2003, 10:58 AM

Robert,

If you would indulge my interest for a moment, could you tell me if there is a witness mark on this barrel? thanks.

--Dwight

policeluger · 11-19-2003, 02:26 PM

"pedantic"?....is there a forum for those of us with out a dictionary.

rabbrt2 · 11-20-2003, 03:53 AM

Dwight,

Yes there is.

Robert

11-17-2003, 06:45 AM	#1
rabbrt2 User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Central Pennsylvania Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Significance of Nitro Marking I am confused regarding the significance of the Nitro marking. From the markings index contained on the site: "German "Nitro" commercial proof. Found on Lugers produced after 1920." I have a Erfurt 1913/1920 double date that has military receiver markings but a nitro proof on the barrel. Does this mean that the gun has been rebarreled, or does it mean that the gun was taken out of military use in 1920 and made available to police? Robert

11-17-2003, 09:57 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Robert, I would not expect a C/N proofed barrel to be installed as part of a Weimar rework of your WW1 PO8. Most likely what you have is an East German replacement barrel. If this was done in the DDR, there will usually be importer marks somewhere on the pistol. The DDR C/N with be "thinner" than that used in the 1920 and before, and sometimes will have a date under it (eg. 953 for Sept 1953). TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-17-2003, 12:24 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Robert, There have been many discussions on the Sear Safety and Magazine safety... Please do a search of the forums (link at the top of the page) and you will find the answers to your questions and graphics to show you what you are looking for. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-17-2003, 01:54 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Robert, Here is one that I remembered: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...=000669#000000 It was the only relevant one in this forum... check each of the other forums with the search function and I know there are a couple of good illustrations on the function of the sear safety because I posted them... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-17-2003, 05:00 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I understand that the sear safety was removed when Lugers were placed in service for Police to prevent the gun from accidentally firing after having been taken down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually Robert, the sear safety was ADDED to the Luger for the reason you stated. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-17-2003, 09:18 AM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I believe the C/N proof began to be used with later 1908 commerical production, superseeding "BUG" proofing, thus being much earlier than 1920. My 1908 commercial, #55055 has C/N proofs.

11-17-2003, 10:00 AM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,305 Times in 429 Posts	Robert, Without knowing an awful lot more about your Luger--other markings on the barrel, presence of sear safety, etc.--it is only possible to say that it has undergone civilian proof testing. --Dwight

11-17-2003, 11:30 AM	#5
rabbrt2 User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Central Pennsylvania Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok I think the picture is coming together, the Luger is VOPO, and the barrel is stamped 853 below the nitro mark. Please provide more detail on the sear safety. I understand that the sear safety was removed when Lugers were placed in service for Police to prevent the gun from accidentally firing after having been taken down. But where is the thing and what does it look like. Robert

11-17-2003, 01:11 PM	#7
rabbrt2 User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Central Pennsylvania Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John. I looked on the parts drawing but for some reason I am not downloading the parts listing, all I get is the drawing with numbers. Anyway I will do the search as you suggested. Should have thought of it before. Robert

11-17-2003, 07:08 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,695 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,677 Times in 551 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by rabbrt2: <strong>Ok I think the picture is coming together, the Luger is VOPO, and the barrel is stamped 853 below the nitro mark. Robert</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I've read that the "853" indicates that the barrel was either made or installed in August, 1953. FWIW as I have no positive proof that the information is correct.

11-18-2003, 12:28 AM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Rabbert2, The Crown N was used when smokeless propellent was used to proof the pistol. The Crown U was stamped when black powder was used to proof it. I guess this was what you originally asked about? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-18-2003, 02:05 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,305 Times in 429 Posts	Um...a bit of pedantic detail here... There are a number of different Crown/N and C/U conventions. The 1892 German proof law specified three markings, Crown/B, Crown/U, and Crown/G, to be used. C/B and C/U were stamped on the barrel, receiver, and breechblock of 1900-1906 Lugers; the C/B signified power-proof, C/U (for Untersuchung) signified inspection. C/G was only found on the barrel, G (Gezogen) meaning rifled.(Costanzo, p.196 & 206) In 1906 a new proof law was introduced, Crown/N replacing the C/B,U,G marks. C/N signified nitro proof. This proof was applied to Lugers until 1930. (Costanzo, p.201) Crown/U was the DWM/Mauser Oberndorf commercial proof found on Lugers manufactured from 1930-1933. A C/U with a different crown was used as the Mauser commercial proof from 1934-1939. (Costanzo, p.192 & 193) In 1950 the East Germans instituted a Crown/U as an inspection mark at Suhl, and a Crown/N as the Suhl nitro proof. (Costanzo, p.164 & 203) Although there is a lot of correspondence with N and U, the crowns are all quite different and can be differentiated in the context of the pistol on which it resides. --Dwight

11-18-2003, 10:50 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Warren Buxton discusses the DDR dating codes in his "The P38 Pistol" Vol 3. I've also observed that many of the DDR reworks had the frame and trigger bar drilled for the sear safety, which they never installed. All of the unused spare DDR trigger bars that I purchased from Germany, were drilled for the sear safety post. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-18-2003, 01:49 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Tom, if they didn't have the blueprints, I would wager that the sample gun they used to reverse engineer the manufacturing processes had that hole for the sear safety and no one ever questioned what it was for... if the pattern part had the hole... they all got one... Just my __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-19-2003, 03:32 AM	#15
rabbrt2 User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Central Pennsylvania Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, Actually I was trying to figure out if the barrel on this Luger was original, but it appears from the posts that it is not, as it has a C/N over 853 (August 1953). Robert

11-19-2003, 10:58 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,305 Times in 429 Posts	Robert, If you would indulge my interest for a moment, could you tell me if there is a witness mark on this barrel? thanks. --Dwight

11-19-2003, 02:26 PM	#17
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	"pedantic"?....is there a forum for those of us with out a dictionary.

11-20-2003, 03:53 AM	#18
rabbrt2 User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Central Pennsylvania Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, Yes there is. Robert