OT Full auto Luger or Broomhandle

Edward Tinker · 09-15-2002, 10:15 AM

So I have heard that they experimented with full auto, but can't imagine they were effective? Tom A and Lugerdoc, you've shot them I think? How do they kick? All over the place???

Must be almost uncontrollable? A friend traded for a S&W 659 and it had been messed with, it would shoot 2-3 rounds at once, was cool (he had it fixed) but you couldnÃ¢??t shoot a broad barn on a clear day and he was a big guy, none of us were worth a darn on it. So unless you were making noise, it is one of those sounds good ideas?

wterrell · 09-15-2002, 10:36 AM

Edward,

I have never been around an automatic, but I would assume that the heat factor would just about kill the effectiveness of the pistol. The heat transfer to the grip straps would render the thing to hot to handle.

Do you suppose?

Ron Wood · 09-15-2002, 10:53 AM

Ed,
Full auto Lugers were an experimental design, but full auto Broomhandles were designated "Schnellfeuerpistole" (which I think you probably have heard at one time or another) and were a production item. The earliest ones were created in 1931 and used the so-called "Nickl" patent mechanism. About 3000 of these were produced for China. This mechanism was somewhat unreliable so in 1932 the "Westinger" patent mechanism was incorporated. The total production estimate of Schnellfeuers is around 95,000. The Spanish companies of Royal and Astra also produced their version of the Schnellfeuer. The Astra Model F incorporated a rate-reduction mecanism in the grip to make fire more controllable.

The Navarro brothers of Mexico patented a modification to allow full auto on a Luger, and at least one prototype was developed. I have a photo of what appears to be a factory modification for full or selective fire of a Luger, that was taken in an eastern European police museum. I have to go back through my notes to try to find more details on this gun. This gun was written up in Automag at one time.

The biggest problem for full automatic pistols, in additon to controllability, is magazine capacity. Unless you have a very light and precise touch, one trigger pull is going to empty the gun. Consequently, the Mauser, Astra and Royal pistols quickly went to a 20 round magazine. The Luger never stood a chance unless a drum magazine was used.

P.S. All of these guns had to be used with a sholder stock in full auto mode. Without it, most of the shots end up headed for outer space.

Heydrich · 09-15-2002, 04:35 PM

Here are some photos from the book German Automatic Weapons of World War II for the R713 Schnellfeuer-Pistole. One thing I have always found very interesting is that the rear sight for this pistol goes out to an absurd 1,000 meters. First of all, who would be using this weapon instead of a rifle at that range? And even if you were say shooting at a trench line to “keep their heads down” with a R713, you’d never come close to anything at that range. Heck, the sight on my G33/40 carbine only goes out to 600 meters. There must have been a salesman involved with the design of the R713 the way I look at it.

Doubs · 09-15-2002, 05:34 PM

Here is a picture copied from issue one of "Le Luger" that seems to be an LP-08 modified to select fire capability. My French is lousy so perhaps someone else can translate the specific text.

kidvett · 09-15-2002, 06:56 PM

I'll try to do my best on the translation:

1st part ( below barrel ):

Detail of the sear design on the selective fire variation.

2nd part ( bottom ):

Interesting modification of a Long P-08 into a selective fire pistol. The pistol ( probably a test model ) is number 9 and some of it's parts are stamped with the letter K.

End of translation.

Could it be that this specific pistol is a K date?

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

Doubs · 09-15-2002, 07:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by kidvett:
<strong><Snip> Could it be that this specific pistol is a K date?
kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you for the translation. It's pretty much what I got out of it but with my language skills I'm never sure!

It's possible, of course, that Mauser made up a "K" date LP-08 (using an old barrel) for testing but I seriously doubt it. The rear sight is of the 1917 - 1918 type without the fine-tune feature. My *guess* is that it's a late-war DWM. Unfortunately, what you see is the extent of the available information in the book.

Edward Tinker · 09-15-2002, 07:36 PM

Interesting idea, but as I was thinking, I can't imagine it being effective. The rate of fire would just be too high. M16A2's are okay with the 3 round burst, but anything more and even then, the rounds are just about everywhere even when you hold it like a son of a gun.

unspellable · 09-15-2002, 10:15 PM

The long range sights on the C96 were for just that, make 'em keep their heads down over in the other guy's trenches. Same purpose for the artillery model Lugers. They were sometimes employed by machine gun crews while clearing a jam, changing barrels, or starting a new belt. Granted, you can't really expect to hit anything, but still if some guy's potting way, you're gonna keep your head down. keep in mind this is WWI era trench warfare and there are extensive trench systems. So what if it lands in the next trench over? And you have months to sight in, nobody's going anywhere.

Before somebody says it's a C96 and WWI started in 1914, remember the Boer War and a couple of other little incidents before that.

Probably had soime value as an advertising gimmick too. The Borchardt and Broomhandle were a new order of performance for handgun velocity, hence range.

mauro · 09-16-2002, 12:10 AM

Dear Friends,
in my book concerning Luger Artillery I wrote a chapter related to the Luger LP08 Schnellfeuer. This pistol is in the Paul Regnier collector, in Swiss. Albert Beliard provide me a complete set of high quality pictures related to this pistol with very interesting zooms on the automatic mechanism.

Ciao

George_F · 09-17-2002, 05:33 PM

Most people assume that if you have the gun full-auto you have to empty the magazine in one squirt. I have two of the automatic Mausers (one by Mauser and one by Astra) and they are quite pleasant to shoot. By squeezing the trigger briefly I can get 2-4 shot bursts, which with the stock is quite controllable. I have no problem putting all shots from the burst into a 25 yard pistol target.

I have not fired with the stock removed as it would be wasteful and rather pointless. There would be no control whatsoever. That picture is interesting, as I have not seen the stock hel like that (grabbed from the bottom rear). I place my offset hand (left) onto the stock about 6 inches behind my shooting hand. This helps maintain a steady aim and mitigate the weapon's rise as it fires.

Just my .02

Ron Wood · 09-17-2002, 07:34 PM

George,
Obviously you have the "light and precise touch" I was speaking of! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Freischütz · 09-18-2002, 01:10 AM

If you wrap your right thumb over the stock's top with a normal rifle grip, the C96's hammer will sharply hit the joint at your thumb's base. You must flatten out your thumb or hold it Springfield style to avoid this unpleasant surprise.

Michigan Gunner · 09-19-2002, 09:10 PM

Hand held full auto fire is really only useful at close range, about 20 meters or less. It's use is to put an attacker down fast. Any other time, you are much better off with semi-auto. Also, if you are good with semi-auto, it is almost as effective at close range as well. A firearm is not much good if you run out of ammo.

Lock and Load!

09-15-2002, 10:15 AM	#1
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	OT Full auto Luger or Broomhandle So I have heard that they experimented with full auto, but can't imagine they were effective? Tom A and Lugerdoc, you've shot them I think? How do they kick? All over the place??? Must be almost uncontrollable? A friend traded for a S&W 659 and it had been messed with, it would shoot 2-3 rounds at once, was cool (he had it fixed) but you couldnÃ¢??t shoot a broad barn on a clear day and he was a big guy, none of us were worth a darn on it. So unless you were making noise, it is one of those sounds good ideas? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-15-2002, 10:36 AM	#2
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Edward, I have never been around an automatic, but I would assume that the heat factor would just about kill the effectiveness of the pistol. The heat transfer to the grip straps would render the thing to hot to handle. Do you suppose? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-15-2002, 10:53 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Ed, Full auto Lugers were an experimental design, but full auto Broomhandles were designated "Schnellfeuerpistole" (which I think you probably have heard at one time or another) and were a production item. The earliest ones were created in 1931 and used the so-called "Nickl" patent mechanism. About 3000 of these were produced for China. This mechanism was somewhat unreliable so in 1932 the "Westinger" patent mechanism was incorporated. The total production estimate of Schnellfeuers is around 95,000. The Spanish companies of Royal and Astra also produced their version of the Schnellfeuer. The Astra Model F incorporated a rate-reduction mecanism in the grip to make fire more controllable. The Navarro brothers of Mexico patented a modification to allow full auto on a Luger, and at least one prototype was developed. I have a photo of what appears to be a factory modification for full or selective fire of a Luger, that was taken in an eastern European police museum. I have to go back through my notes to try to find more details on this gun. This gun was written up in Automag at one time. The biggest problem for full automatic pistols, in additon to controllability, is magazine capacity. Unless you have a very light and precise touch, one trigger pull is going to empty the gun. Consequently, the Mauser, Astra and Royal pistols quickly went to a 20 round magazine. The Luger never stood a chance unless a drum magazine was used. P.S. All of these guns had to be used with a sholder stock in full auto mode. Without it, most of the shots end up headed for outer space. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-15-2002, 07:36 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Interesting idea, but as I was thinking, I can't imagine it being effective. The rate of fire would just be too high. M16A2's are okay with the 3 round burst, but anything more and even then, the rounds are just about everywhere even when you hold it like a son of a gun. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-16-2002, 12:10 AM	#10
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Dear Friends, in my book concerning Luger Artillery I wrote a chapter related to the Luger LP08 Schnellfeuer. This pistol is in the Paul Regnier collector, in Swiss. Albert Beliard provide me a complete set of high quality pictures related to this pistol with very interesting zooms on the automatic mechanism. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-15-2002, 04:35 PM	#4
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some photos from the book German Automatic Weapons of World War II for the R713 Schnellfeuer-Pistole. One thing I have always found very interesting is that the rear sight for this pistol goes out to an absurd 1,000 meters. First of all, who would be using this weapon instead of a rifle at that range? And even if you were say shooting at a trench line to “keep their heads down” with a R713, you’d never come close to anything at that range. Heck, the sight on my G33/40 carbine only goes out to 600 meters. There must have been a salesman involved with the design of the R713 the way I look at it.

09-15-2002, 05:34 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	Here is a picture copied from issue one of "Le Luger" that seems to be an LP-08 modified to select fire capability. My French is lousy so perhaps someone else can translate the specific text.

09-15-2002, 06:56 PM	#6
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I'll try to do my best on the translation: 1st part ( below barrel ): Detail of the sear design on the selective fire variation. 2nd part ( bottom ): Interesting modification of a Long P-08 into a selective fire pistol. The pistol ( probably a test model ) is number 9 and some of it's parts are stamped with the letter K. End of translation. Could it be that this specific pistol is a K date? kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

09-15-2002, 07:23 PM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by kidvett: <strong><Snip> Could it be that this specific pistol is a K date? kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote> Thank you for the translation. It's pretty much what I got out of it but with my language skills I'm never sure! It's possible, of course, that Mauser made up a "K" date LP-08 (using an old barrel) for testing but I seriously doubt it. The rear sight is of the 1917 - 1918 type without the fine-tune feature. My guess is that it's a late-war DWM. Unfortunately, what you see is the extent of the available information in the book.

09-15-2002, 10:15 PM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The long range sights on the C96 were for just that, make 'em keep their heads down over in the other guy's trenches. Same purpose for the artillery model Lugers. They were sometimes employed by machine gun crews while clearing a jam, changing barrels, or starting a new belt. Granted, you can't really expect to hit anything, but still if some guy's potting way, you're gonna keep your head down. keep in mind this is WWI era trench warfare and there are extensive trench systems. So what if it lands in the next trench over? And you have months to sight in, nobody's going anywhere. Before somebody says it's a C96 and WWI started in 1914, remember the Boer War and a couple of other little incidents before that. Probably had soime value as an advertising gimmick too. The Borchardt and Broomhandle were a new order of performance for handgun velocity, hence range.

09-17-2002, 05:33 PM	#11
George_F User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Most people assume that if you have the gun full-auto you have to empty the magazine in one squirt. I have two of the automatic Mausers (one by Mauser and one by Astra) and they are quite pleasant to shoot. By squeezing the trigger briefly I can get 2-4 shot bursts, which with the stock is quite controllable. I have no problem putting all shots from the burst into a 25 yard pistol target. I have not fired with the stock removed as it would be wasteful and rather pointless. There would be no control whatsoever. That picture is interesting, as I have not seen the stock hel like that (grabbed from the bottom rear). I place my offset hand (left) onto the stock about 6 inches behind my shooting hand. This helps maintain a steady aim and mitigate the weapon's rise as it fires. Just my .02

09-17-2002, 07:34 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	George, Obviously you have the "light and precise touch" I was speaking of! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-18-2002, 01:10 AM	#13
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	If you wrap your right thumb over the stock's top with a normal rifle grip, the C96's hammer will sharply hit the joint at your thumb's base. You must flatten out your thumb or hold it Springfield style to avoid this unpleasant surprise.

09-19-2002, 09:10 PM	#14
Michigan Gunner User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Michigan, on the border Posts: 75 Thanks: 2 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	Hand held full auto fire is really only useful at close range, about 20 meters or less. It's use is to put an attacker down fast. Any other time, you are much better off with semi-auto. Also, if you are good with semi-auto, it is almost as effective at close range as well. A firearm is not much good if you run out of ammo. Lock and Load!