Odd Erfurt Frame

Thor · 09-22-2003, 12:35 PM

Even seen this? Compared to normal shaped DWM frame.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ERFURTODDFRAME.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ERFURTODDFRAME.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DWMFRAME.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DWMFRAME.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

John Sabato · 09-22-2003, 01:16 PM

Thor,

This looks like a frame that missed a finish machining operation... perhaps a even a "lunchbox special" acquisition... it is very interesting for sure....

How does this area look with appropriate grips on it?

Greg · 09-22-2003, 02:48 PM

Ted

What are the respective dates of manufacture of the two frames?

Thor · 09-22-2003, 03:20 PM

The Erfurt was made in 1916 in the "b" block. It is marked MUCH like the Luger shown on page 75 and 76 of Still's Imperial Lugers. After I looked it up I noticed there were not too many reported in the "b" block!
The DWM was from a 1915/1920 Double date so I assume it was made in 1915.

John Sabato · 09-22-2003, 04:25 PM

I guess my next question would be does anyone out there have an Erfurt or any other manufacture Luger frame that has a similar profile?

this rather poor focus shot of the left side "ear" of my 1914 Erfurt Artillery does not exhibit the same profile as the frame Thor has shown us...

I think that this is a good example of why Luger grips are so difficult to buy "off the rack" and for a good fit they have to be handfitted...

Ron Wood · 09-22-2003, 05:48 PM

Ted,
That has got to be one of the more bizarre factory errors to come along. How that one ever got out of the house is hard to imagine. About the only other oddity of that magnitude was the Luger with the "slab-side" receiver that was posted some time ago (I can't even remember which forum). It had no chamfers on the forward edge of the receiver. Omitted machining steps are hard to conceive, but even harder to believe is finding them on a completed and issued/sold pistol.

Thor · 09-22-2003, 05:53 PM

Ron, it really had me shaking my head and it hurt my eyes, my brain told me something was really wrong with the shape. Looking and working with Lugers everyday really has the shape cemented in my mind of the Luger pistol. This one "just didnt look right" but it is interesting.

Edward Tinker · 09-22-2003, 07:15 PM

But good eyes Ted!

So, what does it look like when the grips are on the gun?

Does the grips appear "off" or short?

I had to look at it several times, knew it didn't look right, but couldn't figure it out at first.

ed

Thor · 09-22-2003, 08:02 PM

Looked at it again today with the grips on and the right side looks normal but the left has a big ridge of metal sticking out away from the grip, barfo! A real anomoly frame! Kinda neat to see a mistake or shortcut!

Thor · 09-22-2003, 08:16 PM

Ron, are you talking about the G date that was shown on Jan Still's forum? I think I still have a picture of it?

Ron Wood · 09-22-2003, 09:58 PM

Ted,that is the one. I thought it was on Jan's forum, but I wasn't sure.

Russ · 09-23-2003, 08:51 AM

Ted
can you post the pic of the G date?

thanx Russ

Thor · 09-23-2003, 09:16 AM

First, and FOREMOST, I give 100% of the credit to Jan Still for the pictures and the excellent thread that was presented on his forum, prior to the assault that deleted many of these excellent posts. He started that thread and provided the pictures. This G Date has no flutes (or chamfer as Ron calls them). As I remember his article, the K dates exhibited a crimp groove that was from one of the earlier manufacturing processes and the flutes were simple added to remove the crimp mark. Some K dates will have the flute AND a remnant of the crimp mark. This G date receiver just missed the step that added the flute so the receiver goes all the way to the end with no flute. Thanks to Jan for bringing this interesting subject up and allowing me to share this on John Dunkle's Luger forum.

Russ · 09-23-2003, 08:44 PM

Ted
Thanx
Russ

09-22-2003, 12:35 PM	#1
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Odd Erfurt Frame Even seen this? Compared to normal shaped DWM frame. <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ERFURTODDFRAME.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ERFURTODDFRAME.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DWMFRAME.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/DWMFRAME.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-22-2003, 01:16 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thor, This looks like a frame that missed a finish machining operation... perhaps a even a "lunchbox special" acquisition... it is very interesting for sure.... How does this area look with appropriate grips on it? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-22-2003, 03:20 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	The Erfurt was made in 1916 in the "b" block. It is marked MUCH like the Luger shown on page 75 and 76 of Still's Imperial Lugers. After I looked it up I noticed there were not too many reported in the "b" block! The DWM was from a 1915/1920 Double date so I assume it was made in 1915. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-22-2003, 04:25 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I guess my next question would be does anyone out there have an Erfurt or any other manufacture Luger frame that has a similar profile? this rather poor focus shot of the left side "ear" of my 1914 Erfurt Artillery does not exhibit the same profile as the frame Thor has shown us... I think that this is a good example of why Luger grips are so difficult to buy "off the rack" and for a good fit they have to be handfitted... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-22-2003, 05:48 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	Ted, That has got to be one of the more bizarre factory errors to come along. How that one ever got out of the house is hard to imagine. About the only other oddity of that magnitude was the Luger with the "slab-side" receiver that was posted some time ago (I can't even remember which forum). It had no chamfers on the forward edge of the receiver. Omitted machining steps are hard to conceive, but even harder to believe is finding them on a completed and issued/sold pistol. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-22-2003, 02:48 PM	#3
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ted What are the respective dates of manufacture of the two frames?

09-22-2003, 05:53 PM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Ron, it really had me shaking my head and it hurt my eyes, my brain told me something was really wrong with the shape. Looking and working with Lugers everyday really has the shape cemented in my mind of the Luger pistol. This one "just didnt look right" but it is interesting. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-22-2003, 07:15 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,928 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	But good eyes Ted! So, what does it look like when the grips are on the gun? Does the grips appear "off" or short? I had to look at it several times, knew it didn't look right, but couldn't figure it out at first. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-22-2003, 08:02 PM	#9
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Looked at it again today with the grips on and the right side looks normal but the left has a big ridge of metal sticking out away from the grip, barfo! A real anomoly frame! Kinda neat to see a mistake or shortcut! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-22-2003, 08:16 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Ron, are you talking about the G date that was shown on Jan Still's forum? I think I still have a picture of it? __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-22-2003, 09:58 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	Ted,that is the one. I thought it was on Jan's forum, but I wasn't sure. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-23-2003, 08:51 AM	#12
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Ted can you post the pic of the G date? thanx Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

09-23-2003, 09:16 AM	#13
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	First, and FOREMOST, I give 100% of the credit to Jan Still for the pictures and the excellent thread that was presented on his forum, prior to the assault that deleted many of these excellent posts. He started that thread and provided the pictures. This G Date has no flutes (or chamfer as Ron calls them). As I remember his article, the K dates exhibited a crimp groove that was from one of the earlier manufacturing processes and the flutes were simple added to remove the crimp mark. Some K dates will have the flute AND a remnant of the crimp mark. This G date receiver just missed the step that added the flute so the receiver goes all the way to the end with no flute. Thanks to Jan for bringing this interesting subject up and allowing me to share this on John Dunkle's Luger forum. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-23-2003, 08:44 PM	#14
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Ted Thanx Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!