SUGGESTIONS FOR QUALIFYING ANSWERS - Page 2

Orv Reichert · 10-22-2002, 09:19 PM

Well...I certainly don't blame Jan! Why bother to try to help those who don't want to know or are just trying to validate their favorite theory without any basis in fact?

Orv Reichert

The truth is not always the same as the majority decision. --Pope Jean Paul

John D. · 10-22-2002, 10:07 PM

Hi Orv.....

I agree with you. If I had the ability to save Jan's first post, I would have - as it made a lot of sense. In short, it was to "post what you know - and "how" you know it". I think as well, and I could be interpreting here - it is fine to post what you "think you know" based on personal observtion, but if you had a "source" for that information as well - simply post that source as well.

From my perspective - Jan's comment made a lot of sense. For example - if the source of my info is wrong, outdated or not proved - I'd want to know that. Also, I don't think Jan's suggestion takes away in the least - the "banter" that takes place in this Forum at all.

Please come back Jan!!! I'm not sure who said what to offend you, if that is the case (as Tom A. speculates in his post), but you would be sorely missed in this Forum if you were to leave. Maybe I'm speaking for myself - but my bet is I'm speaking for most of the folks here....

John D.

Navy · 10-22-2002, 10:13 PM

All,

Someone whose name I do not remember once described the evolution of knowledge as:
1. that which no one else knows
2. that which a few others know
3. that which more know
5. that which many think they know
6. that which no one knows

This is appropo of the forum. Some pissants among the group feel that in their ill-informed state of nature they can insist on absolute proofs and signs from heaven that their favorite theories are not correct.

Such nincompoops are driving away the only sources of truth available.

Perhaps there is a valid reason for a new collector to be snockerred out of a few thousand (or tens of thousands)of dollars...maybe it will dampen the ill-informed arrogance I have seen and let some folks enjoy learning by experience.

And if it sounds (reads?) like I have a case of the jaws, we,, I do.

What a goddamm shame to destroy such a valuable resource.

Tom A.
Who spent the weekend with a group of W.W.II fighter pilots and enjoyed every second of it.
cs thumbs down [img]mad.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 10-23-2002, 12:20 AM

I have expressed my personal regrets to Jan via personal email... He has not responded. And yes, he personally deleted the contents of all of his posts since we changed formats.

I agree with all who have expressed regrets at Jan's decision to leave... There is no way to make up for the damage this incident caused. Does anyone see any difference in the type of behavior from that which has been displayed by the Washington DC sniper... No regard for the lives and feelings of others.

How unfortunate for the majority of the members of this forum that one member who took pride in an ungentlemanly and arrogant comment has precipitated the greatest loss this forum has experienced since it was founded in 1998.

I seriously doubt if a public apology to Jan by the party responsible would change his mind about self imposed exile now, but I hope Heydrich is man enough to apologize publicly and that Jan will be gracious enough to accept.

This is indeed a sad day in OUR Forum's history.

-John Sabato

ViggoG · 10-23-2002, 01:06 AM

John D,
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> "I'M JUMPING MAD"
Let us all join with John D. To ask that our Esteemed Author Jan Still Accept Our Appologies for any mistreatment that He perceived to be pointed at him and return to the Forum, We all will suffer a great loss by his absence !
I agree whole heartedly with the opinion that this Forum is a place for the exchange of knowledge gained through experience.
And since we are faced with the fact "That Some Come Not To Learn", But TO LOUDLY SPEAK with the Demonstrated Intent of Forcing their Shortsighted and Tunnel Visioned Theories to the forefront at the expense of deriding and insulting the Recognised and more Experienced and Knowledgible Contributors.
Then we are again bordering on the brink of the Chasm That The Old Forum Tumbled Into and that we are now trying to pull ourselves up and out of.
..
::::ITS TIME THAT ANY ONE OF US WHO DO NOT MAINTAIN OUR POSTS WITHIN THE BOUNDRYS OF GOOD MANNERS BE OPENLY REPREMANDED BY NAME AND BE REQUIRED TO PASS OUR COMMENTS THROUGH A "FILTER for PROPRIETY" BEFORE IT IS POSTED FOR ALL TO SEE.::::::
I DO NOT IN ANY WAY INTEND THAT THIS FILTER PROCESS IN ANY WAY ALTER THE TONE OF DIFFERENCE OF OPINION BUT MERELY MAKE THE LANGUAGE USED BE ACCEPTABLE WITHIN THE BOUNDRYS OF GOOD TASTE !!
..
After a period of demonstrating that they can speak civily and handle their posts in good manner they should be reinstated to once again post freely.
..
And this should be applied to each and every one who accepted the Forum Decorum as a pre-requsite to membership herein.
I know some will say were not children to be chastized in this manner,
To which I answer, If we act like children then let us be accepted as we act and treated in like manner.
IN OTHER WORDS "GROW UP OR GET OUT AND LEAVE THE FORUM TO BE USED AS INTENDED BY OUR GOOD HOST JOHN D, YOU ARE NOW IN HIS HOUSE AS HIS GUEST, ACT LIKE IT" <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Now lets have a time of cooling off!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
ViggoG <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

MauserLugers · 10-23-2002, 01:12 AM

Hi,
Very sad that this has reached this level, but this has been developing for some time now. In the past there was a post about the ego's of collectors, and then repeatedly posts with wrong information from the older books, and still lots of the "what if" or pure speculation. Jan wrote me right after Herb's comments and said this was getting to be just too much bull**** to put up with. Jan is a really class act and he likes and demands things to be precise, not half ass'd. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned by all with this: to respond with more consideration, and to know what you are talking about if you are going to answer something. Participation is great and is needed, but one has to be more precise and accurate with answers. After all, isn't the sharing of correct information what this Forum is suppose to be all about?

Jimbo · 10-23-2002, 01:34 AM

I wish Jan stayed. I want to sincerely thank him for being here for a while. I can understand his leaving. He tried to help us. But I'm sure he has several places to go besides here if he gets in the mood to be abused by ignorant people.

I think Jan would thrive on reasoned debate using personal experiences or documented sources. Too bad we couldn't stick with that level.

****************************************

Come back, Jan! Not everyone here just likes to hear themselves talk. We need your help. There is so much to learn.

But if you don't come back, we understand and thank you so much for trying to help us.

Jim Ferreira

Note to John D. & the moderators,

It's funny. If you accept Jan as "The Master" as far as comprehensive Luger variations goes, losing him from this forum is a loss on par with that faced when you decided to close the previous forum. There are others here who have solid knowledge in one or another area of Lugers, but in Jan there was authoritative expertise. To watch him contact another expert in translating some arcane unit marking and come back with an answer, a real true probably dead accurate answer, not a guess, was a thing of beauty.

Ah, well gentlemen. Life goes on.

Luger's forever! Collect them. Shoot them. Study them. Whatever. It's an addiction that will outlive Mr. Still. It will outlive all of us. The fascination will live on in your grandchildren and their grandchildren.
Thank goodness the freedom of America provides a right to own them. Enjoy!

Strider · 10-23-2002, 09:23 AM

I for one will miss the knowledge that Mr. Still has brought to this forum. He did his best to help everyone whether they were a seasoned collector or just buying their first Luger. I know that his help was invaluable to all. We learned so much from this gentleman. It is definetely a sad day for all. Mr. Still I would like to thank you for all that you have done to help everyone here. It is my hope that one day you will decide to come back and be a part of this again. Again thanks.
Sincerely,
Sidney F. Gariss

Brandon · 10-23-2002, 10:58 AM

Well,
I feel almost responsible for this, this whole started to take the "snowball effect" after some posts in the thread I starded!!!

Jan,
Your wealth of information will be sorely missed!

Regards,Brandon

Doubs · 10-23-2002, 09:21 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brandon:
<strong>Well,
I feel almost responsible for this, this whole started to take the "snowball effect" after some posts in the thread I starded!!! Regards,Brandon</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brandon, don't beat yourself up over this. It had nothing whatsoever to do with you. It's been an on-going problem and if it hadn't happened in this thread, it would have happened elsewhere.

I've expressed my regrets to Jan by private e-mail and, the same as John S., haven't received a reply.

The public disparaging of Jan's research, knowledge and excellent books by one individual, followed by the immature, grade-school style breast-beating of another was more than Jan could take. Jan obviously doesn't suffer fools well.

Jan is one of the world's leading experts on Lugers... period! It takes many years of great effort at no small cost to acquire his level of knowledge and expertise. The members of this forum had access to his hard-earned experience for nothing more than the price of asking a serious question and being willing to accept a serious answer.

Jan was also one of the few links the forum had to the research and knowledge of other world-class Luger experts. You can bet that Jan is, or has been, in touch with them on a regular basis. Other serious students of the Luger around the world have chosen for whatever reason not to participate on this forum. Perhaps now we know why. Which acknowledged expert wants their word to be questioned, ridiculed and berated by someone without the credentials to do so?

John Sabato has done the world of Luger collectors a great service with this forum. He and all of the moderators and all of the members who try to learn. The disrespect shown to Jan is also disrespect for the efforts of John to provide an invaluable service to Luger-lovers at any stage of interest.

It's a damned shame and this whole affair disgusts me.

Walker Smith, Byron, GA (Doubs)

schwob · 10-27-2002, 04:58 PM

Jan, please do not leave the Forum. Your expertise, insight, experience, and being a nice person is just too hard to find these days. From time to time we all get our hide scuffed. Bear with the members of the Forum, we're all on the same side having one mutual interest. We would like you to remain with us, many thanx..... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

MG · 10-27-2002, 06:21 PM

Dear All,
I am sorry to hear that Mr. Jan C.Stills will no longer be on the forum and ALL of his knowleadge
that WAS on this forum will no longer be avalible
to the members(except in his books). I joined this forum in June or July of 2002 when I started
to buy Lugers because of All the Expert infomation
that was here to find. Now we have LOST TWO EXPERTS because some people felt that they knew more then the Experts and had to use childish behavior to get THEIR point across. I personally
feel that the trouble makers should be the ones to leave and not those who have shone that they
can follow rules and have infomed discussions.
I can not say the things I would like to say as
that will make me as bad as those I am mad at.
My only hope is that we can fix this before it gets completly out of control. If Jan or Garfield
ever come back it will be a god send for us Newbies on this forum.

My apologies to the Administrator for my rant.

God Bless

Aaron · 10-27-2002, 07:39 PM

A tragic loss to all Luger collector members of the forum. My one small consolation is that I still have his marvelous books and no one can ever take them away from me.

G.W. Gill · 10-27-2002, 11:04 PM

Guys,
I was going to express a loss. A change of mind. We've all been professionals in an occupation of some sort (military, industrial, academic, public safety, ect.). We've had buddies get mad and stomp out of the room out of frustration. Didn't the good ones come back?.

We accept some and give them the lectern because we respect their knowledge and experience. When taking that lectern the speaker has to acknowledge ,to himself, that some listeners are misinformed, ignorant, braindead or just can't learn in the way of normal people.
I have made comments and been rebuked by several on this forum. I then acknoweledged their expertise and expressed my appreciation for setting me straight. We've all been there. I would not like to think that a good researcher, experienced professional, ect., is not capable of the difficult task of mentoring. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Steve Richards · 10-28-2002, 01:27 AM

Some of this goes back to what I was taught when writting papers for various science classes. Make clear what you know and can prove, what you think is so (and why), and what you got from another source and what that source was.

And do it all POLITELY! There is enough bad in this world for us on this forum to add to it by not being polite with each other even if we disagree.

10-22-2002, 09:19 PM	#21
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well...I certainly don't blame Jan! Why bother to try to help those who don't want to know or are just trying to validate their favorite theory without any basis in fact? Orv Reichert The truth is not always the same as the majority decision. --Pope Jean Paul __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

10-23-2002, 12:20 AM	#24
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I have expressed my personal regrets to Jan via personal email... He has not responded. And yes, he personally deleted the contents of all of his posts since we changed formats. I agree with all who have expressed regrets at Jan's decision to leave... There is no way to make up for the damage this incident caused. Does anyone see any difference in the type of behavior from that which has been displayed by the Washington DC sniper... No regard for the lives and feelings of others. How unfortunate for the majority of the members of this forum that one member who took pride in an ungentlemanly and arrogant comment has precipitated the greatest loss this forum has experienced since it was founded in 1998. I seriously doubt if a public apology to Jan by the party responsible would change his mind about self imposed exile now, but I hope Heydrich is man enough to apologize publicly and that Jan will be gracious enough to accept. This is indeed a sad day in OUR Forum's history. -John Sabato __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-23-2002, 09:23 AM	#28
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I for one will miss the knowledge that Mr. Still has brought to this forum. He did his best to help everyone whether they were a seasoned collector or just buying their first Luger. I know that his help was invaluable to all. We learned so much from this gentleman. It is definetely a sad day for all. Mr. Still I would like to thank you for all that you have done to help everyone here. It is my hope that one day you will decide to come back and be a part of this again. Again thanks. Sincerely, Sidney F. Gariss __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

10-27-2002, 06:21 PM	#32
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear All, I am sorry to hear that Mr. Jan C.Stills will no longer be on the forum and ALL of his knowleadge that WAS on this forum will no longer be avalible to the members(except in his books). I joined this forum in June or July of 2002 when I started to buy Lugers because of All the Expert infomation that was here to find. Now we have LOST TWO EXPERTS because some people felt that they knew more then the Experts and had to use childish behavior to get THEIR point across. I personally feel that the trouble makers should be the ones to leave and not those who have shone that they can follow rules and have infomed discussions. I can not say the things I would like to say as that will make me as bad as those I am mad at. My only hope is that we can fix this before it gets completly out of control. If Jan or Garfield ever come back it will be a god send for us Newbies on this forum. My apologies to the Administrator for my rant. God Bless __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

10-22-2002, 10:07 PM	#22
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi Orv..... I agree with you. If I had the ability to save Jan's first post, I would have - as it made a lot of sense. In short, it was to "post what you know - and "how" you know it". I think as well, and I could be interpreting here - it is fine to post what you "think you know" based on personal observtion, but if you had a "source" for that information as well - simply post that source as well. From my perspective - Jan's comment made a lot of sense. For example - if the source of my info is wrong, outdated or not proved - I'd want to know that. Also, I don't think Jan's suggestion takes away in the least - the "banter" that takes place in this Forum at all. Please come back Jan!!! I'm not sure who said what to offend you, if that is the case (as Tom A. speculates in his post), but you would be sorely missed in this Forum if you were to leave. Maybe I'm speaking for myself - but my bet is I'm speaking for most of the folks here.... John D.

10-22-2002, 10:13 PM	#23
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Someone whose name I do not remember once described the evolution of knowledge as: 1. that which no one else knows 2. that which a few others know 3. that which more know 5. that which many think they know 6. that which no one knows This is appropo of the forum. Some pissants among the group feel that in their ill-informed state of nature they can insist on absolute proofs and signs from heaven that their favorite theories are not correct. Such nincompoops are driving away the only sources of truth available. Perhaps there is a valid reason for a new collector to be snockerred out of a few thousand (or tens of thousands)of dollars...maybe it will dampen the ill-informed arrogance I have seen and let some folks enjoy learning by experience. And if it sounds (reads?) like I have a case of the jaws, we,, I do. What a goddamm shame to destroy such a valuable resource. Tom A. Who spent the weekend with a group of W.W.II fighter pilots and enjoyed every second of it. cs thumbs down [img]mad.gif[/img]

10-23-2002, 01:06 AM	#25
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John D, <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> "I'M JUMPING MAD" Let us all join with John D. To ask that our Esteemed Author Jan Still Accept Our Appologies for any mistreatment that He perceived to be pointed at him and return to the Forum, We all will suffer a great loss by his absence ! I agree whole heartedly with the opinion that this Forum is a place for the exchange of knowledge gained through experience. And since we are faced with the fact "That Some Come Not To Learn", But TO LOUDLY SPEAK with the Demonstrated Intent of Forcing their Shortsighted and Tunnel Visioned Theories to the forefront at the expense of deriding and insulting the Recognised and more Experienced and Knowledgible Contributors. Then we are again bordering on the brink of the Chasm That The Old Forum Tumbled Into and that we are now trying to pull ourselves up and out of. .. ::::ITS TIME THAT ANY ONE OF US WHO DO NOT MAINTAIN OUR POSTS WITHIN THE BOUNDRYS OF GOOD MANNERS BE OPENLY REPREMANDED BY NAME AND BE REQUIRED TO PASS OUR COMMENTS THROUGH A "FILTER for PROPRIETY" BEFORE IT IS POSTED FOR ALL TO SEE.:::::: I DO NOT IN ANY WAY INTEND THAT THIS FILTER PROCESS IN ANY WAY ALTER THE TONE OF DIFFERENCE OF OPINION BUT MERELY MAKE THE LANGUAGE USED BE ACCEPTABLE WITHIN THE BOUNDRYS OF GOOD TASTE !! .. After a period of demonstrating that they can speak civily and handle their posts in good manner they should be reinstated to once again post freely. .. And this should be applied to each and every one who accepted the Forum Decorum as a pre-requsite to membership herein. I know some will say were not children to be chastized in this manner, To which I answer, If we act like children then let us be accepted as we act and treated in like manner. IN OTHER WORDS "GROW UP OR GET OUT AND LEAVE THE FORUM TO BE USED AS INTENDED BY OUR GOOD HOST JOHN D, YOU ARE NOW IN HIS HOUSE AS HIS GUEST, ACT LIKE IT" <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> Now lets have a time of cooling off!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> ViggoG <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

10-23-2002, 01:12 AM	#26
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, Very sad that this has reached this level, but this has been developing for some time now. In the past there was a post about the ego's of collectors, and then repeatedly posts with wrong information from the older books, and still lots of the "what if" or pure speculation. Jan wrote me right after Herb's comments and said this was getting to be just too much bull**** to put up with. Jan is a really class act and he likes and demands things to be precise, not half ass'd. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned by all with this: to respond with more consideration, and to know what you are talking about if you are going to answer something. Participation is great and is needed, but one has to be more precise and accurate with answers. After all, isn't the sharing of correct information what this Forum is suppose to be all about?

10-23-2002, 01:34 AM	#27
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I wish Jan stayed. I want to sincerely thank him for being here for a while. I can understand his leaving. He tried to help us. But I'm sure he has several places to go besides here if he gets in the mood to be abused by ignorant people. I think Jan would thrive on reasoned debate using personal experiences or documented sources. Too bad we couldn't stick with that level. **************************************** Come back, Jan! Not everyone here just likes to hear themselves talk. We need your help. There is so much to learn. But if you don't come back, we understand and thank you so much for trying to help us. Jim Ferreira Note to John D. & the moderators, It's funny. If you accept Jan as "The Master" as far as comprehensive Luger variations goes, losing him from this forum is a loss on par with that faced when you decided to close the previous forum. There are others here who have solid knowledge in one or another area of Lugers, but in Jan there was authoritative expertise. To watch him contact another expert in translating some arcane unit marking and come back with an answer, a real true probably dead accurate answer, not a guess, was a thing of beauty. Ah, well gentlemen. Life goes on. Luger's forever! Collect them. Shoot them. Study them. Whatever. It's an addiction that will outlive Mr. Still. It will outlive all of us. The fascination will live on in your grandchildren and their grandchildren. Thank goodness the freedom of America provides a right to own them. Enjoy!

10-23-2002, 10:58 AM	#29
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I feel almost responsible for this, this whole started to take the "snowball effect" after some posts in the thread I starded!!! Jan, Your wealth of information will be sorely missed! Regards,Brandon

10-23-2002, 09:21 PM	#30
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Brandon: <strong>Well, I feel almost responsible for this, this whole started to take the "snowball effect" after some posts in the thread I starded!!! Regards,Brandon</strong><hr></blockquote> Brandon, don't beat yourself up over this. It had nothing whatsoever to do with you. It's been an on-going problem and if it hadn't happened in this thread, it would have happened elsewhere. I've expressed my regrets to Jan by private e-mail and, the same as John S., haven't received a reply. The public disparaging of Jan's research, knowledge and excellent books by one individual, followed by the immature, grade-school style breast-beating of another was more than Jan could take. Jan obviously doesn't suffer fools well. Jan is one of the world's leading experts on Lugers... period! It takes many years of great effort at no small cost to acquire his level of knowledge and expertise. The members of this forum had access to his hard-earned experience for nothing more than the price of asking a serious question and being willing to accept a serious answer. Jan was also one of the few links the forum had to the research and knowledge of other world-class Luger experts. You can bet that Jan is, or has been, in touch with them on a regular basis. Other serious students of the Luger around the world have chosen for whatever reason not to participate on this forum. Perhaps now we know why. Which acknowledged expert wants their word to be questioned, ridiculed and berated by someone without the credentials to do so? John Sabato has done the world of Luger collectors a great service with this forum. He and all of the moderators and all of the members who try to learn. The disrespect shown to Jan is also disrespect for the efforts of John to provide an invaluable service to Luger-lovers at any stage of interest. It's a damned shame and this whole affair disgusts me. Walker Smith, Byron, GA (Doubs)

10-27-2002, 04:58 PM	#31
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jan, please do not leave the Forum. Your expertise, insight, experience, and being a nice person is just too hard to find these days. From time to time we all get our hide scuffed. Bear with the members of the Forum, we're all on the same side having one mutual interest. We would like you to remain with us, many thanx..... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

10-27-2002, 07:39 PM	#33
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	A tragic loss to all Luger collector members of the forum. My one small consolation is that I still have his marvelous books and no one can ever take them away from me.

10-27-2002, 11:04 PM	#34
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Guys, I was going to express a loss. A change of mind. We've all been professionals in an occupation of some sort (military, industrial, academic, public safety, ect.). We've had buddies get mad and stomp out of the room out of frustration. Didn't the good ones come back?. We accept some and give them the lectern because we respect their knowledge and experience. When taking that lectern the speaker has to acknowledge ,to himself, that some listeners are misinformed, ignorant, braindead or just can't learn in the way of normal people. I have made comments and been rebuked by several on this forum. I then acknoweledged their expertise and expressed my appreciation for setting me straight. We've all been there. I would not like to think that a good researcher, experienced professional, ect., is not capable of the difficult task of mentoring. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

10-28-2002, 01:27 AM	#35
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Some of this goes back to what I was taught when writting papers for various science classes. Make clear what you know and can prove, what you think is so (and why), and what you got from another source and what that source was. And do it all POLITELY! There is enough bad in this world for us on this forum to add to it by not being polite with each other even if we disagree.