Artillery Luger Problem

TW · 05-20-2004, 10:15 AM

Hello, I just joined this forum and need some advice. I have had a (mismatched) 1917 Artillery Luger for some years and am curious if someone can diagnose a problem with it. At least once in every five or six rounds, the barrel extension will recoil so far back in the frame that the axle pin entirely clears the frame and the axle pin will move laterally slightly and catch at the back of the frame to hold the action open. This is with commercial ammunition. Could this be caused by a weak recoil spring? Or perhaps the frame is worn such that the barrel extension does not stop soon enough. Thank you for any advice you might have.

Thor · 05-20-2004, 10:44 AM

This problem was the reason that Mauser in 1934 went to a hump back frame, a frame extension at the rear to better contain the pin, and the NAVY models went to a enlarged head on the axle pin. Also Stoeger (modern AIMCO, MITCHELL, etc) use a larger pin. The first thing to check is does the pin have it full "ridge" I have seen some that have had the ridge removed for what ever reason. If you have a messed up pin, all you need probably is a new pin with the correct head on it. If that is not the case, I would think it is mismatch and a worn frame/reciever stop. Check the pin head first and let us know! Thanks

John Sabato · 05-20-2004, 10:49 AM

Welcome to the Lugerforum TW.

Since you have described the gun as a mismatch... it is possible that the original recoil spring is inadequate. It could also be possible that the "S" link that pulls the toggle back down after recoil may be bent out of specifications and allows too much travel.

But before we get into mechanicals, what ammo are you using? it may just be to hot a load for your gun. Winchester bulk 9mm ammo sold at Walmart gets good reports on this forum for dependability and function in most Lugers. You might try a box of that...

IS the rear toggle pin serial numbered to the toggle and upper receiver? If it is too loose a fit, it could be contributing to the problem by movement during recoil. A slightly tighter fit of this pin might help things too.

Ideally, the upper receiver and toggle should move sufficiently on recoil to activate the holdopen if the gun is loaded with a single round in the magazine but with sufficient spring tension to prevent the frame from taking a pounding or allowing the rear pin to do what you are describing.

I would start with a new recoil spring, then if that doesn't work, try replacing the "S" link, and finally try a new toggle pin that fits tighter...

Lugerdoc · 05-20-2004, 10:59 AM

TW, If your luger was in spec, the lug on the bottom of the receiver should not allow it to go so far back in the frame that the main axel can drift out. As Thor mentioned above, perhaps there is excessive wear in this area or your axel may be chipped. A stronger recoil spring might prevent this overlap, but would probably cause some feeding problems. TH

TW · 05-20-2004, 02:46 PM

My thanks to Thor, Mr. Sabato and Lugerdoc for their advice. I will investigate over the weekend and be back in touch. The pistol has an original 1917 DWM top half, including the toggle, but I have been told that it is an Erfurt bottom. I'll report more when I get a chance to look at it again. As far as the ammunition, I have shot various commercial, probably Win., Federal, etc all all of the brands make it jam like I described. Thanks again.

05-20-2004, 10:15 AM	#1
TW New User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Deep South Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Artillery Luger Problem Hello, I just joined this forum and need some advice. I have had a (mismatched) 1917 Artillery Luger for some years and am curious if someone can diagnose a problem with it. At least once in every five or six rounds, the barrel extension will recoil so far back in the frame that the axle pin entirely clears the frame and the axle pin will move laterally slightly and catch at the back of the frame to hold the action open. This is with commercial ammunition. Could this be caused by a weak recoil spring? Or perhaps the frame is worn such that the barrel extension does not stop soon enough. Thank you for any advice you might have.

05-20-2004, 10:44 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	This problem was the reason that Mauser in 1934 went to a hump back frame, a frame extension at the rear to better contain the pin, and the NAVY models went to a enlarged head on the axle pin. Also Stoeger (modern AIMCO, MITCHELL, etc) use a larger pin. The first thing to check is does the pin have it full "ridge" I have seen some that have had the ridge removed for what ever reason. If you have a messed up pin, all you need probably is a new pin with the correct head on it. If that is not the case, I would think it is mismatch and a worn frame/reciever stop. Check the pin head first and let us know! Thanks __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

05-20-2004, 10:49 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum TW. Since you have described the gun as a mismatch... it is possible that the original recoil spring is inadequate. It could also be possible that the "S" link that pulls the toggle back down after recoil may be bent out of specifications and allows too much travel. But before we get into mechanicals, what ammo are you using? it may just be to hot a load for your gun. Winchester bulk 9mm ammo sold at Walmart gets good reports on this forum for dependability and function in most Lugers. You might try a box of that... IS the rear toggle pin serial numbered to the toggle and upper receiver? If it is too loose a fit, it could be contributing to the problem by movement during recoil. A slightly tighter fit of this pin might help things too. Ideally, the upper receiver and toggle should move sufficiently on recoil to activate the holdopen if the gun is loaded with a single round in the magazine but with sufficient spring tension to prevent the frame from taking a pounding or allowing the rear pin to do what you are describing. I would start with a new recoil spring, then if that doesn't work, try replacing the "S" link, and finally try a new toggle pin that fits tighter... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-20-2004, 10:59 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	TW, If your luger was in spec, the lug on the bottom of the receiver should not allow it to go so far back in the frame that the main axel can drift out. As Thor mentioned above, perhaps there is excessive wear in this area or your axel may be chipped. A stronger recoil spring might prevent this overlap, but would probably cause some feeding problems. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-20-2004, 02:46 PM	#5
TW New User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Deep South Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My thanks to Thor, Mr. Sabato and Lugerdoc for their advice. I will investigate over the weekend and be back in touch. The pistol has an original 1917 DWM top half, including the toggle, but I have been told that it is an Erfurt bottom. I'll report more when I get a chance to look at it again. As far as the ammunition, I have shot various commercial, probably Win., Federal, etc all all of the brands make it jam like I described. Thanks again.