Sleeve Insertion - Page 2

Karl · 07-24-2002, 05:39 PM

Thanks Jack,
I sent mine off to Gun Rack as well on 12 July after a positive reference. They said that turnaround was about two weeks but perhaps the sleeve guy was on vacation. I'll be interested to learn about your experience, and how the gun performs with the new sleeve. KFS

Jack Owens · 07-30-2002, 04:13 PM

Dear Fiends,

For those who may be following the sleeve-insertion job that I gave to the Gun Rack, I got a phone-call today from the Gun Rack and was asked if I wanted a .30 caliber bore or 9mm. Since I had already shot 9mm Luger in the pistol, I was a bit disconerted by the question, but I told them that I wanted a 9mm bore.

I asked them if they had considered registering on the Links & Resources section of our Forum, but I was told that they didn't need any more business and had cut down their advertising because they had about as much business as they could handle as a result of satisfied customers. Apparently that was the hold-up on completing the job on my pistol.

I'm to send them a check for $100 and they'll return the barrel to me with the job done.

Stay tuned for the next report.

Regards,
Jack Owens

Karl · 08-05-2002, 02:41 PM

[img]frown.gif[/img] I just received my sleeved barrel/receiver back from the Gun Rack and I am strongly disappointed with the workmanship. The sleeve is significantly off center at the muzzle and there is a gap between the end of the sleeve and the inside curve of the muzzle crown on one side, filled in with some kind of epoxy-like material. At the breech end, the sleeve is about 1/32" short and there is a burr protruding from the face of the original breech where the drill exited, another gap on one side and some crude grinding on the ramp at the bottom of the breech. There are other grinder gouges on the inside of the receiver where it looks like the grinder got away from the careless worker (craftsman does not apply) who worked on the ramp. On the positive side there are no marks on the external surfaces and the wait was not excessive (sent the barrel off on 11 July)
Bottom line: I would never, ever do business with this company again. KFS

Edward Tinker · 08-05-2002, 02:45 PM

Karl, how irritating, it sounds to me like not one or two small mistakes but a series of screw ups? I always thought a sleeving should be a slight line at the muzzle and be almost "seamless" in design?

What a shame, hopefully it will shoot like a son of a gun?

Herb · 08-05-2002, 03:00 PM

Karl, thanks for the info. This is the kind of thing that needs to be known to prevent other mambers of the Forum from having the same experience. Sorry to hear that it was such a mess, probably nothing can be done now to correct it.

John Sabato · 08-05-2002, 04:03 PM

Hi Karl, Thanks for posting the results of your project...

If it is at all possible, could you post photos of the work done on your gun by the Gun Rack?

This is an area that many long time Luger owners consider and knowing what, and what not, to look for in a Luger "surgeon" would be an important lesson for us all...

Personally I am very sorry that it was a costly lesson for you.

Doug G. · 08-05-2002, 04:57 PM

Not, wanting to sound like a know it all, but see my earlier post reguarding the "Gun Rack". While the two guns that they did for me functioned properly and were accurate, the work looked like crap! [img]mad.gif[/img] Well no one can't say is didn't tell you all before. I am sorry that you had to learn the hard way the same as I did.

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Karl · 08-05-2002, 05:39 PM

Thanks all for the quick response, simpathy, etc.

Yes Doug, I did read your earlier post and put off sending the barrel out because of it, but finally gave in when I could find no other source for sleeving to 9mm. The gun needed a new barrel or a sleeve job regardless, and if it doesn't perform satisfactorily I'll just have the barrel replaced. Money was never an issue, and I would gladly have paid more for better workmanship. I will communicate this point as well in a letter to the Gun Rack.

John, in regard to posting photos, I don't have access to a digital camera right now and even then it would be difficult to photograph the breech. Besides, I have already begun working on the damage that can be corrected.

After polishing down the muzzle, it seems that the gap I described is more than just a surface problem. The fit fit between the sleeve and the bored-out barrel is not as tight as I would expect. I'll try to take the gun to the range in a day or so and see how it performs, but I just bought a boat, so maÃ?Â±ana. KFS

Karl · 08-07-2002, 03:40 PM

I took the sleeved Luger to the range today. It functioned perfectly, no feeding problems, spent brass looked normal. I am unable to give a clear account of accuracy because it shoots so high that I had to use Kentucky windage just to get holes in the paper (the sleeve offset at the muzzle is at 12 o'clock). Anyway, I was still able to achieve about a 3" group at 50'. So despite the poor workmanship it seems to work OK. KFS

Jack Owens · 09-06-2002, 04:44 AM

Dear Friends,

Going back to the origin of this thread, on 8/23/02 I finally got the artillery Luger back from the Gun Rack where I had sent it on 6/21/02.

It came packed compactly in a Styrofoam container for protection along with an interesting photocopied article on the Luger from the 7/93 issue of "Shooting Times" magazine. The total cost, including handling and shipping, was $100.

It has been so hot around here (Porterville, CA) that I delayed going out to the range, but I finally did a couple of times and can now report on the results.

Unfortunately I have no digital camera so this entry will have to be verbal.

Going by appearance alone, I'd say it looks like a quit decent job. The bore is right in the center of the muzzle. However, a lack of attention to fine detail resulted in a slight burr, that I don't know how to remove, on the left side of the muzzle when it was crowned. Since it is very slight I thought a few rounds might remove it but after about thirty shots it's still there and it may be affecting accuracy. As far as accuracy itself goes, the best I've been able to do is about a 6" group at 20 yards with the shots being slightly high and to the right.. Whether that's attributable to the crowning of the muzzle or just the fact that it's an old gun that can't do any better I don't know.

Feeding and functioning are okay with no deformed casings

Could a better job be done? Again I don't know.

Would I recommend The Gun Rack to others who wanted a sleeve installed in a Luger barrel? And would I send them another of my Lugers for a repeat job? On the basis of the job they did for me and John Keenan (geoda), the answer is yes. But if we take into account the reports of Karl Schuler and Doug George, the verdict is mixed. It appears that the Gun Rack is unable to do consistently good work, meaning you send in your gun and take your chances.

I suppose the first consideration is, do you really want to change a display piece into a shooting piece. And if so, what can be done realistically, without being impossibly demanding about it. We now have about 500 member on the Forum. Is there any input available on this topic from anyone else?

Regards to all,
Jack

Johnny Peppers · 09-06-2002, 09:05 AM

Jack,
You can remove the burr in the crown yourself with a round head brass machine bolt and fine valve lapping compound. Choose a brass bolt with a head slightly larger in diameter than the bore, and although I prefer using one of the old hand cranked drills an electric drill on slow speed can be used if care is taken. Don't apply too much pressure, and rotate the drill in a 4/5" arc around the muzzle so as to not wear a groove in one place on the brass bolt. Works like a charm.

Jack Owens · 09-06-2002, 05:45 PM

Thanks for the suggestion, Johnny, but it sounds a little risky to me, . I mean if you're polishing off the burr on one side --and it is only on one side-- by having the bolt-head bear on the bore all the way around, it would seem that while you're polishing the area of the burr and removing it, you're also polishing (and wearing away) the area that has no burr. You would then wind up with no burr but the opposite side would be slightly rounded as a result, giving a non-symmetrical crown.

The only way to do it with precision that I can think of is with a lathe.

Any other ideas from anyone else?

Regards,
Jack

Johnny Peppers · 09-06-2002, 09:00 PM

Jack,
The screwdriver slot on the machine bolt will remove the burr long before the compound eats one side of the bore away. It works, but if you have any doubts I would surely send it back to the people that left it in that condition. Maybe they will have purchased a lathe by the time you return it.

Karl · 09-09-2002, 03:31 PM

Jack,

Glad to hear that you had a more favorable experience with Gun Rack.

My relined barrel had a similar burr which I removed with a fine jeweler's file. After reading the last few posts I wonder how critical this could be to accuracy. The gun shoots OK but it is not as accurate as my other lugers with so-so bores. KFS

08-05-2002, 02:45 PM	#24
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Karl, how irritating, it sounds to me like not one or two small mistakes but a series of screw ups? I always thought a sleeving should be a slight line at the muzzle and be almost "seamless" in design? What a shame, hopefully it will shoot like a son of a gun? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-05-2002, 03:00 PM	#25
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Karl, thanks for the info. This is the kind of thing that needs to be known to prevent other mambers of the Forum from having the same experience. Sorry to hear that it was such a mess, probably nothing can be done now to correct it. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-05-2002, 04:03 PM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hi Karl, Thanks for posting the results of your project... If it is at all possible, could you post photos of the work done on your gun by the Gun Rack? This is an area that many long time Luger owners consider and knowing what, and what not, to look for in a Luger "surgeon" would be an important lesson for us all... Personally I am very sorry that it was a costly lesson for you. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-05-2002, 04:57 PM	#27
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Not, wanting to sound like a know it all, but see my earlier post reguarding the "Gun Rack". While the two guns that they did for me functioned properly and were accurate, the work looked like crap! [img]mad.gif[/img] Well no one can't say is didn't tell you all before. I am sorry that you had to learn the hard way the same as I did. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

07-24-2002, 05:39 PM	#21
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	Thanks Jack, I sent mine off to Gun Rack as well on 12 July after a positive reference. They said that turnaround was about two weeks but perhaps the sleeve guy was on vacation. I'll be interested to learn about your experience, and how the gun performs with the new sleeve. KFS

07-30-2002, 04:13 PM	#22
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Fiends, For those who may be following the sleeve-insertion job that I gave to the Gun Rack, I got a phone-call today from the Gun Rack and was asked if I wanted a .30 caliber bore or 9mm. Since I had already shot 9mm Luger in the pistol, I was a bit disconerted by the question, but I told them that I wanted a 9mm bore. I asked them if they had considered registering on the Links & Resources section of our Forum, but I was told that they didn't need any more business and had cut down their advertising because they had about as much business as they could handle as a result of satisfied customers. Apparently that was the hold-up on completing the job on my pistol. I'm to send them a check for $100 and they'll return the barrel to me with the job done. Stay tuned for the next report. Regards, Jack Owens

08-05-2002, 02:41 PM	#23
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	[img]frown.gif[/img] I just received my sleeved barrel/receiver back from the Gun Rack and I am strongly disappointed with the workmanship. The sleeve is significantly off center at the muzzle and there is a gap between the end of the sleeve and the inside curve of the muzzle crown on one side, filled in with some kind of epoxy-like material. At the breech end, the sleeve is about 1/32" short and there is a burr protruding from the face of the original breech where the drill exited, another gap on one side and some crude grinding on the ramp at the bottom of the breech. There are other grinder gouges on the inside of the receiver where it looks like the grinder got away from the careless worker (craftsman does not apply) who worked on the ramp. On the positive side there are no marks on the external surfaces and the wait was not excessive (sent the barrel off on 11 July) Bottom line: I would never, ever do business with this company again. KFS

08-05-2002, 05:39 PM	#28
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	Thanks all for the quick response, simpathy, etc. Yes Doug, I did read your earlier post and put off sending the barrel out because of it, but finally gave in when I could find no other source for sleeving to 9mm. The gun needed a new barrel or a sleeve job regardless, and if it doesn't perform satisfactorily I'll just have the barrel replaced. Money was never an issue, and I would gladly have paid more for better workmanship. I will communicate this point as well in a letter to the Gun Rack. John, in regard to posting photos, I don't have access to a digital camera right now and even then it would be difficult to photograph the breech. Besides, I have already begun working on the damage that can be corrected. After polishing down the muzzle, it seems that the gap I described is more than just a surface problem. The fit fit between the sleeve and the bored-out barrel is not as tight as I would expect. I'll try to take the gun to the range in a day or so and see how it performs, but I just bought a boat, so maÃ?Â±ana. KFS

08-07-2002, 03:40 PM	#29
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	I took the sleeved Luger to the range today. It functioned perfectly, no feeding problems, spent brass looked normal. I am unable to give a clear account of accuracy because it shoots so high that I had to use Kentucky windage just to get holes in the paper (the sleeve offset at the muzzle is at 12 o'clock). Anyway, I was still able to achieve about a 3" group at 50'. So despite the poor workmanship it seems to work OK. KFS

09-06-2002, 04:44 AM	#30
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Friends, Going back to the origin of this thread, on 8/23/02 I finally got the artillery Luger back from the Gun Rack where I had sent it on 6/21/02. It came packed compactly in a Styrofoam container for protection along with an interesting photocopied article on the Luger from the 7/93 issue of "Shooting Times" magazine. The total cost, including handling and shipping, was $100. It has been so hot around here (Porterville, CA) that I delayed going out to the range, but I finally did a couple of times and can now report on the results. Unfortunately I have no digital camera so this entry will have to be verbal. Going by appearance alone, I'd say it looks like a quit decent job. The bore is right in the center of the muzzle. However, a lack of attention to fine detail resulted in a slight burr, that I don't know how to remove, on the left side of the muzzle when it was crowned. Since it is very slight I thought a few rounds might remove it but after about thirty shots it's still there and it may be affecting accuracy. As far as accuracy itself goes, the best I've been able to do is about a 6" group at 20 yards with the shots being slightly high and to the right.. Whether that's attributable to the crowning of the muzzle or just the fact that it's an old gun that can't do any better I don't know. Feeding and functioning are okay with no deformed casings Could a better job be done? Again I don't know. Would I recommend The Gun Rack to others who wanted a sleeve installed in a Luger barrel? And would I send them another of my Lugers for a repeat job? On the basis of the job they did for me and John Keenan (geoda), the answer is yes. But if we take into account the reports of Karl Schuler and Doug George, the verdict is mixed. It appears that the Gun Rack is unable to do consistently good work, meaning you send in your gun and take your chances. I suppose the first consideration is, do you really want to change a display piece into a shooting piece. And if so, what can be done realistically, without being impossibly demanding about it. We now have about 500 member on the Forum. Is there any input available on this topic from anyone else? Regards to all, Jack

09-06-2002, 09:05 AM	#31
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jack, You can remove the burr in the crown yourself with a round head brass machine bolt and fine valve lapping compound. Choose a brass bolt with a head slightly larger in diameter than the bore, and although I prefer using one of the old hand cranked drills an electric drill on slow speed can be used if care is taken. Don't apply too much pressure, and rotate the drill in a 4/5" arc around the muzzle so as to not wear a groove in one place on the brass bolt. Works like a charm.

09-06-2002, 05:45 PM	#32
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the suggestion, Johnny, but it sounds a little risky to me, . I mean if you're polishing off the burr on one side --and it is only on one side-- by having the bolt-head bear on the bore all the way around, it would seem that while you're polishing the area of the burr and removing it, you're also polishing (and wearing away) the area that has no burr. You would then wind up with no burr but the opposite side would be slightly rounded as a result, giving a non-symmetrical crown. The only way to do it with precision that I can think of is with a lathe. Any other ideas from anyone else? Regards, Jack

09-06-2002, 09:00 PM	#33
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jack, The screwdriver slot on the machine bolt will remove the burr long before the compound eats one side of the bore away. It works, but if you have any doubts I would surely send it back to the people that left it in that condition. Maybe they will have purchased a lathe by the time you return it.

09-09-2002, 03:31 PM	#34
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	Jack, Glad to hear that you had a more favorable experience with Gun Rack. My relined barrel had a similar burr which I removed with a fine jeweler's file. After reading the last few posts I wonder how critical this could be to accuracy. The gun shoots OK but it is not as accurate as my other lugers with so-so bores. KFS