A lesson for the newer guys

Edward Tinker · 04-22-2003, 12:28 PM

This is a nice looking Luger, but has one major flaw (at least). If you can look it over and tell me what it is?

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=8448613

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This auction is for a 1938 Erfurt Luger. It has been in my family possession for many years, yet I don't know for a fact if it saw any action during WWII.

Included is a leather holster which I believe to be original, (Note: The strap that closes the holster is broken) a spare clip and tool in holster pocket.

The number "46" appears in at least 4 places. I understand this to mean matching parts. There are normal wear marks on the bluing, and a small mark on the right side barrel. Generally this Luger is in a shiny state.

There are several military proofs on the gun. According to Lugerforum.com they are German military related.<hr /></blockquote>

Sgt Art · 04-22-2003, 01:52 PM

My guess is Erfurt was out of business by 1938 (probably shortly after WWI)and it's a mix-master.
The seller is either a real dumbo or a bald faced liar.

Sgt Art · 04-22-2003, 01:53 PM

By out of business, it was no longer making guns. I do know that Erfurt was the Royal Arsenal.

Bob in OH · 04-22-2003, 04:14 PM

Initially, when I read Ed's post I thought I had the auction pegged...and had already seen it. Nope. Ed and I had been looking at different auctions.

Here's one that I saw that looked wrong from AA...

Comments are welcome as I think I see some major items with this one too but really don't want to insert foot into mouth... Comments anyone?
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4130655

Sgt Art · 04-22-2003, 04:17 PM

I think this one has been around awhile. My immediate thought is that it's incorrect due to the DWM toggle on a 1936. Should be a Mauser toggle, no?

Edward Tinker · 04-22-2003, 04:27 PM

Yup, I thought, hey, this is a nice looking gun, if only it was right! The Erfurt arsenal made Lugers in WW1, but was waaaaay long gone by 1938. Any other things guys?

I always wonder, are they trying to pass it off as orginal or do they simply not know?

Matching means a lot to lots of people, but by goodness, it has to have those two digits (on a military gun), on a lot of different areas! So, if someone says all matching, do they mean:

1. ALL matching
2. All matching, except for the grips and magazine (acceptable to many collectors)
3. Forced matching, either I installed like numbered parts on purpose or it was matched at an aresenal. The 2nd is reasonably acceptable to many collectors, but value is still off.
4. All matching except...

Do they know where to look on the gun for all matching?

Do they know what they are looking at to start with?

John D. · 04-22-2003, 07:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
This is a nice looking Luger, but has one major flaw (at least).....<hr /></blockquote>
The ad mentions "Lugerforum.com"??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

OK - I'll keep looking... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Stevie · 04-22-2003, 09:32 PM

The lower frame ain't got the Mauser hump at the back to keep the rear toggle pin in, also strawed ejector and blued trigger and take down lever. Looks like a real metopolitan. Maybe this was one of the last ditch lugers....dream...dream! At least my Mauser 42-42 is made from all Mauser parts. So Ed, tell me what kind/make is the lower receiver?

kidvett · 04-22-2003, 09:44 PM

Just a small note on ERFURTS,

ERFURT Lugers were produced at the Royal Arsenal located at ERFURT, Germany. The last ones were made in 1918. Estimation of production is as follows:

1911 : 10 000 pistols
1912 : 22 000
1913 : 25 000 with & without stock lug
1914 : 25 000
1915 : NO PISTOL RECORDED
1916 : 80 000
1917 : 150 000
1918 : 180 000

Various Reworks of ERFURT pistols were made after WWI to include Simson & others ...

kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Stevie · 04-22-2003, 09:49 PM

Darn, looked at my Mauser and the ejector looks to be the same color as the auction gun and I know its been reblued, I guess nothing is strawed on that gun.

I just shootem. Stevie.

Edward Tinker · 04-22-2003, 09:52 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So Ed, tell me what kind/make is the lower receiver?<hr /></blockquote>Heck, I don't know Stevie!

I'm learning as much from you guys as you teach me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Herb · 04-22-2003, 10:01 PM

Taking a guess since there are only three acceptance stamps on the right reciever, and not too clear to make out, I would guess it to be a Mauser, definitely not Erfurt as they have four acceptance stampings as did a lot of DWM's. Don't know what you mean about the LOWER reciever, do you mean frame? This thing is without a doubt a parts gun that someone found some matching numbers for. Kidvett pegged it, none were made after 1918.

Stu · 04-23-2003, 06:10 PM

This is a message I sent and the response I received regarding the 1938 Erfurt ! The seller is obviously happy with the state of affairs, ($785) currently. I believe the bidder is completely uninformed. Why was this one bid so high ?

" Sent: 4/19/03 12:21 PM
Subject: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 8448613

Hi there. I'm not sure if you're aware that Erfurt only made Lugers during WW I. I'm afraid your gun is made up from a mixture of parts, (the 1938
marked upper was most likely made by Mauser), and can't be considered original or matching.

I offer this information just in case the buyer is expecting something that they will not receive, and may then request a refund.

Reply : Greetings,
Thank you so very much for the feedback. I'm am basically clueless when it comes to Lugers. I hope the people who consider or do bid know what they are getting. I have answered boat loads of information about it. Thanks once again."

Sgt Art · 04-23-2003, 07:58 PM

At $785, I'd say the gun is a tad over the amount I would pay for a shooter grade Luger (I feel like $550 to 650 is about right). However, others might feel differently about that. Obviously, the gun is nothing more than a shooter or a source of parts for repairs to other guns. My question, is, even though this auction is a little misleading (I think the seller is not very knowledgeable on Lugers neither are his bidders) what would be a fair market price for the gun?

Stu · 04-23-2003, 08:21 PM

I suppose a fair price is what someone will buy at and someone will sell at, in this case, quite a bit !

Supply and demand in demonstrable action <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

David O · 04-25-2003, 09:44 AM

I have been watching this one two and I can not believe the price it sold for. However, this auction included a holster, tool and two clips. I don't know anything about holsters, but I guess the extras could help justify the price.

Jim Keenan · 05-06-2003, 07:18 PM

Perhaps it is a trick of the lighting (I say that to avoid too many cries of "foul") but that "1938 Erfurt" is not only obviously mismatched but also looks to be heavily buffed and reblued. The corners appear to be rounded and the markings are dished. IMO, it is only a shooter (if that) and not worth the asking price.

Jim

Sgt Art · 05-07-2003, 04:35 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Jim on the buffing and rebluing. The toggle would have been rust blued and the 1938 pieces salt blued which should look different.

04-22-2003, 12:28 PM	#1
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	A lesson for the newer guys This is a nice looking Luger, but has one major flaw (at least). If you can look it over and tell me what it is? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=8448613 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">This auction is for a 1938 Erfurt Luger. It has been in my family possession for many years, yet I don't know for a fact if it saw any action during WWII. Included is a leather holster which I believe to be original, (Note: The strap that closes the holster is broken) a spare clip and tool in holster pocket. The number "46" appears in at least 4 places. I understand this to mean matching parts. There are normal wear marks on the bluing, and a small mark on the right side barrel. Generally this Luger is in a shiny state. There are several military proofs on the gun. According to Lugerforum.com they are German military related.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-22-2003, 04:27 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Yup, I thought, hey, this is a nice looking gun, if only it was right! The Erfurt arsenal made Lugers in WW1, but was waaaaay long gone by 1938. Any other things guys? I always wonder, are they trying to pass it off as orginal or do they simply not know? Matching means a lot to lots of people, but by goodness, it has to have those two digits (on a military gun), on a lot of different areas! So, if someone says all matching, do they mean: 1. ALL matching 2. All matching, except for the grips and magazine (acceptable to many collectors) 3. Forced matching, either I installed like numbered parts on purpose or it was matched at an aresenal. The 2nd is reasonably acceptable to many collectors, but value is still off. 4. All matching except... Do they know where to look on the gun for all matching? Do they know what they are looking at to start with? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-22-2003, 07:20 PM	#7
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 514 Times in 128 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>This is a nice looking Luger, but has one major flaw (at least).....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"></strong> The ad mentions "Lugerforum.com"??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> OK - I'll keep looking... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

04-22-2003, 09:52 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So Ed, tell me what kind/make is the lower receiver?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Heck, I don't know Stevie! I'm learning as much from you guys as you teach me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-22-2003, 10:01 PM	#12
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Taking a guess since there are only three acceptance stamps on the right reciever, and not too clear to make out, I would guess it to be a Mauser, definitely not Erfurt as they have four acceptance stampings as did a lot of DWM's. Don't know what you mean about the LOWER reciever, do you mean frame? This thing is without a doubt a parts gun that someone found some matching numbers for. Kidvett pegged it, none were made after 1918. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

04-22-2003, 01:52 PM	#2
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My guess is Erfurt was out of business by 1938 (probably shortly after WWI)and it's a mix-master. The seller is either a real dumbo or a bald faced liar.

04-22-2003, 01:53 PM	#3
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	By out of business, it was no longer making guns. I do know that Erfurt was the Royal Arsenal.

04-22-2003, 04:14 PM	#4
Bob in OH User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NE OH Posts: 129 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Initially, when I read Ed's post I thought I had the auction pegged...and had already seen it. Nope. Ed and I had been looking at different auctions. Here's one that I saw that looked wrong from AA... Comments are welcome as I think I see some major items with this one too but really don't want to insert foot into mouth... Comments anyone? http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4130655

04-22-2003, 04:17 PM	#5
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think this one has been around awhile. My immediate thought is that it's incorrect due to the DWM toggle on a 1936. Should be a Mauser toggle, no?

04-22-2003, 09:32 PM	#8
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The lower frame ain't got the Mauser hump at the back to keep the rear toggle pin in, also strawed ejector and blued trigger and take down lever. Looks like a real metopolitan. Maybe this was one of the last ditch lugers....dream...dream! At least my Mauser 42-42 is made from all Mauser parts. So Ed, tell me what kind/make is the lower receiver?

04-22-2003, 09:44 PM	#9
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Just a small note on ERFURTS, ERFURT Lugers were produced at the Royal Arsenal located at ERFURT, Germany. The last ones were made in 1918. Estimation of production is as follows: 1911 : 10 000 pistols 1912 : 22 000 1913 : 25 000 with & without stock lug 1914 : 25 000 1915 : NO PISTOL RECORDED 1916 : 80 000 1917 : 150 000 1918 : 180 000 Various Reworks of ERFURT pistols were made after WWI to include Simson & others ... kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

04-22-2003, 09:49 PM	#10
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Darn, looked at my Mauser and the ejector looks to be the same color as the auction gun and I know its been reblued, I guess nothing is strawed on that gun. I just shootem. Stevie.

04-23-2003, 06:10 PM	#13
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	This is a message I sent and the response I received regarding the 1938 Erfurt ! The seller is obviously happy with the state of affairs, ($785) currently. I believe the bidder is completely uninformed. Why was this one bid so high ? " Sent: 4/19/03 12:21 PM Subject: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 8448613 Hi there. I'm not sure if you're aware that Erfurt only made Lugers during WW I. I'm afraid your gun is made up from a mixture of parts, (the 1938 marked upper was most likely made by Mauser), and can't be considered original or matching. I offer this information just in case the buyer is expecting something that they will not receive, and may then request a refund. Reply : Greetings, Thank you so very much for the feedback. I'm am basically clueless when it comes to Lugers. I hope the people who consider or do bid know what they are getting. I have answered boat loads of information about it. Thanks once again."

04-23-2003, 07:58 PM	#14
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	At $785, I'd say the gun is a tad over the amount I would pay for a shooter grade Luger (I feel like $550 to 650 is about right). However, others might feel differently about that. Obviously, the gun is nothing more than a shooter or a source of parts for repairs to other guns. My question, is, even though this auction is a little misleading (I think the seller is not very knowledgeable on Lugers neither are his bidders) what would be a fair market price for the gun?

04-23-2003, 08:21 PM	#15
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I suppose a fair price is what someone will buy at and someone will sell at, in this case, quite a bit ! Supply and demand in demonstrable action <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

04-25-2003, 09:44 AM	#16
David O User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have been watching this one two and I can not believe the price it sold for. However, this auction included a holster, tool and two clips. I don't know anything about holsters, but I guess the extras could help justify the price.

05-06-2003, 07:18 PM	#17
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Perhaps it is a trick of the lighting (I say that to avoid too many cries of "foul") but that "1938 Erfurt" is not only obviously mismatched but also looks to be heavily buffed and reblued. The corners appear to be rounded and the markings are dished. IMO, it is only a shooter (if that) and not worth the asking price. Jim

05-07-2003, 04:35 PM	#18
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm inclined to agree with Jim on the buffing and rebluing. The toggle would have been rust blued and the 1938 pieces salt blued which should look different.