The K�¼ Luger and its origins

[MauserLugers]

I'm getting confused here with all these E/2 marks on the barrel, breech, and right receiver. If I'm not mistaken, this is the LA or LZA stamp as some call it, and has nothing to do with an E/2! In my opinion, this stamps looks like an LA to me.

I looked at my two KU Lugers and I do not see any interior parts marked with the Krieghoff E/2 proofs. Perhaps the ones T.H. observered were one of a kind or someone has pieced the Luger together sometime along the way. I know my 2 are all original and they sure don't have these marks on any interior parts. I've had a couple of others over the years and as I remember they did not have any interior E/2 marking either. Perhaps some of these "unique" KU's have been made "unique" by the last dealer that sold them? I do know that Auto Mag had an article about fake KU Lugers and I know that I bought and resold 2 KU Lugers that a dealer had that were refinished. Anytime these guys refinish and mess with this stuff you'll never how they were originally found.

One of my KU's has an S/42 on the barrel and a W/154. No serial number and this was a G-date spare part. The real KU Lugers lack serial numbers on some of there parts as compared to a military example, so this might suggest something. Rear axle pins can be blank, hold opens can be blank, and the rear toggle can be blank just to mention a few.

In my opinion there is no question that these are made from Mauser parts. They resemble the late Banner two digit Lugers with the lack of some serial numbers on the small parts. I found no E/2 parts on any that I have examined to this point. I know that spare parts were used with Mauser codes of S/42, or 42, but I highly doubt any of these parts are rejected. I feel that term (rejected) has been totally mis-used.

Interesting discussion here with nothing to support anything new in my opinion. Still a guess what the LA means and who assembled them. My guess is that Mauser had something to do with them due to getting all the spare parts in one central location to assemble. Spare parts would be scattered all over the place in late 1942 and later. If these were assembled anytime from 1942 to 1945 they would have to have access to the parts bins. --- Bill

[Jim Keenan]

Again, I don't want to get in too deep on this, but in the factories parts were not numbered until the preliminary assembly stage. Parts intended for spare parts would have been inspected, marked and finished (blued) if required, but would not have been numbered. Mixed parts (mixed numbers) pistols were made up from cannibalized pistols at some point by persons unknown (depot, unit armorer or American gun tinkerer).

If a spare part was numbered to a pistol when it was installed, the numbering was done by the installer (factory, depot, unit armorer, or AGT).

Jim

[ejc]

I was wondering I have shooter with the lza or za eagle acceptance marked barrel. With also the w154 and s42 marked barrel.Its on a 1917 dwm. Still has one almost the same as what I have in weimar and early nazi lugers on page 219.he says its a rework.But what I was wondering if the two were somehow connected. the Ku and this reworked luger as they are the only ones that have this eagle lza or za acceptance mark.I will try and post pics of the eagle za mark on my gun I would be curious to see if they are the same as a ku

[MauserLugers]

According to Jan Still's book you are talking about over 5000 of these KU pistols. That would take a lot of spare parts, a lot of replacement parts, and a lot of workers. Also a lot of space. Mauser would seem to be the most logical place to have all of these necessary items. You also would need die's and stamps, and more than likely a means to blue the Lugers.

To my knowledge there are no mixed numbers on these Lugers so they are not made from "cannibalized" pistols.

[Lugerdoc]

ML, I agree that these were not "cannalibalized" creations, but newly produced from left over spare parts, probably after 1942 when Mauser went out of the Luger business. Gibson also mentions in his book "The KH Parabellum" observing some KUs with Erfurt and Simson proofed parts. The KU that I owned with the dwe/2 inside marked side plate was matching and was over 25 years ago. I don't expect that many KH marked spare parts will show up on the KUs, as I understand that they used up most of their spares making the 2000 1940-1943 dated KHs for the LW (see chart page 127 of Gibson). Any addition LW productions, would have had to use spare from other sources. By 1942 the German Army considered the PO8 obsolete as Mauser even gave 4000 to Portugal and Bulgarian. But the LW, particulary for their troops on the ground (AA batteries, etc) would take whatever 9mm small arms that they could find. TH

[MauserLugers]

T.H.,Don't you mean -- Sold -- instead of gave, when you're referring to the Porugal and Bulgarian Lugers? I seriously doubt Mauser Gave anything away. Naturally the LW was going to take what they could get and that would be the P.38 for one, as in 1942 and later it had replaced the Luger.

[lugercollector]

Not ever having owned a KU Luger,nor having examined one.... my money would be with the theory Tom A put forward.....I have seen several WW2 Documentaries where KZ inmates were assembling Schmeisser machine pistols and parts for other machine guns.....if Mauser had enough left over parts for the production of 10 or 20 Thousand guns it would seem plausible that slave labour could have produced these under supervision.... as were so many other items made to feed the war machine....no proof however....Peter...

[Jim Keenan]

Good point. Some collectors tend to think of Luftwaffe small arms only in terms of pistols for pilots or "drilling" survival guns. But it is well to remember that in the German organization, the air force was charged with two missions that were given to the army under the U.S. structure, airborne operations and anti-aircraft defense.

While the airborne (glider and parachute) troops were not active as such after the Pyrrhic victoty in Crete (they fought as infantry in Holland in 1944), they still had small arms, including the FG.42 which was developed especially for them.

In the other role, Luftwaffe troops manned anti-aircraft guns not only in Germany and conquered countries but right at the front. Probably the best known artillery piece of WWII, the "German 88", was officially named the 8.8cm Fliegerabwehrkanone (FLAK) and whether that most versatile gun was used in an anti-aircraft, anti-tank, or field artillery role, it was manned by Luftwaffe troops.

Jim

[nahpatronen]

Sorry Mr. ML. I meant LA marks - not E/2 marks - on barrel, breech and right side receiver. The rear axle pin on my K�¼ is blank.
It's strange that the K�¼'s have the Mauser production code since they weren't produced by Mauser, but I have a P38 produced by Mauser (WaA135) in 1944 or 1945. It's coded ac, so such things were accepted late in the war.
Nahpatronen