Commercial Database v5 now here

Dwight Gruber · 01-01-2014, 06:22 AM

database

Dwight Gruber · 01-01-2014, 06:24 AM

COMMERCIAL DATABASE DESIGNATIONS

© 2014 Dwight Gruber

Some of the collector designations used in the database and in these remarks may not be the ones collectors are used to seeing and using.

The Luger/Parabellum/P08 is most commonly found as a military pistol. Its physical characteristics usually include markings of the manufacturer and date of production; or its production under a known foreign military contract, usually with its own serial number range. This has provided a convenient, consistent method of identification for the collectors of military Luger pistols.

Collectors usually categorize commercial Lugers by a haphazard reference to dates based on long-standing tradition and conventional wisdom. While this has served as a common vocabulary, it does nothing to further the systematic understanding of commercial Lugers. It actually disinforms by applying dates and designations which bear no relation to the reality of Luger production:

1900—Swiss military designation
1902 Fat Barrel—made in 1903
1902 Carbine—made 1902 to 1906; all pertinent characteristics are those of standard Old Model
1903 French—made in 1906
1906—no official designation this date exists
190x/date (e.g., 1906/20)—Swiss military designation
08 Commercial—army designation Pistole 1908
1913 Commercial—no official designation this date exists
1914 Commercial—standard P08 with stock lug
1920 Commercial—Alphabet Commercial series begins 1921
1920 Carbine—manufacturing dates and circumstances unknown
1923 Commercial (upright c/N, 5-digit serial number)—first appears in 1916, productioncontinues until 1921
1929 DWM (s, t, u suffixes)—s suffix begins 1928, continues into v suffix in 1929

The nomenclature which follows is a systematic categorization of DWM commercially produced pistols based objectively on their characteristics and some related official (usually military) designations. These designations will be used henceforth in the database and succeeding discussions.

There are three basic categories of the DWM Commercial Luger. These three categories are differentiated by substantive changes in design and construction:

Parabellum, Old Model (alter Art, old form): flat recoil spring, dished toggle faces with toggle lock, grip safety, routed/polished thumb safety indicator.

Parabellum, New Model (neues Art, new form): coiled recoil spring, flat toggle faces/no toggle lock, raised breechblock with loaded indicator, grip safety, routed/polished thumb safety indicator.

Pistole 1908: coiled recoil spring, flat toggle faces, no grip safety, raised breechblock with loaded indicator, GESICHERT stamped thumb safety indicator.

Within each model there are distinct types:

Old Model manufactured 1900-1906
Standard Parabellum, Short-Frame Parabellum, Carbine, transitional “French”.

New Model manufactured 1906-1913
Standard Parabellum, Navy Carbine.

Pistole 1908 manufactured 1909-1929
Standard P08 (5-digit serial numbers) manufactured to 1921
Alphabet Commercial (4-digit with letter suffix serial number) manufactured 1921-1929
P08 Carbine

Within each category there are variations, differences in fine details which, historically, collectors have found convenient to designate separately. These include:

Old Model Parabellum, 7.65mm caliber
Commercial
Swiss
American Eagle
U.S. Army test pistols
Bulgarian
Russian
Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed
Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped

Old Model Short Frame, mostly 9mm caliber
9mm caliber with “fat” profile barrels
Commercial
American Eagle
Powell Cartridge Counter
Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed
Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped
German and Dutch test pistols, usually 7.65mm, non-standard barrels

Old Model Carbine, 7.65mm caliber
13½ inch barrel, tangent sights, wooden forend and detachable wood stock
Commercial
American Eagle
Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed
Stamped GERMANY or not stamped

Old Model Transitional “French”,7.65mm caliber
Flat recoil spring, flat toggle faces with toggle lock, New Model breechblock, New Model extractor marked CHARGE’

New Model Navy Carbine, 9mm caliber
6-inch barrel, two-position rear sight
Stock lug and Navy-pattern wood shoulder stock
Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed
Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped
Some thumb safety mark stamped GESICHERT

New Model Parabellum, 7.65mm and 9mm caliber
Commercial
Swiss
American Eagle
With c/B,U,G proofs, lazy or upright c/N proofed, or not proofed
Long frame or short
Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped
Some thumb safety stamped GESICHERT

Pistole 1908 9mm caliber, 7.65mm caliber after 1918
Commercial (5-digit) without stock lug, designated 08C
With stock lug after 1914, designated P08
With c/B,U,G proofs or lazy c/N proofs, upright c/N proofs after 1916
Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped
Some with military proofs
Some engraved R.G. [number]
With rebated sear bar after 1916
Very few with grip safety
Some SAFE and LOADED

P08 Carbine, post-WWI, 7.65mm and 9mm caliber
Separate serial number sequence
Many different barrel, sight, and stock/forend configurations
Grip safety or no grip safety

Alphabet Commercial, 7.65 caliber, 1921-1929
upright c/N proofs
Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or GERMANY or MADE IN GERMANY in other locations, or not stamped
Some back-frame marked Krieghoff SUHL
Very few with grip safety: Swiss, Commercial, AE
Abercrombie & Fitch
Stoeger import mark
Finnish army
Blank toggle/RIFF contract
German Police
Reichsmarine

Within each variation there may be pistols with unique characteristics which are too uncommon to generalize.

JuneGrass 8 · 01-02-2014, 01:11 AM

Thank you Dwight , being very new to Luger Forums , and a desire to know more , your Database is GREAT . Thanks again Don

JesseMc · 01-07-2014, 02:58 PM

Dwight - Very impressive in results and the amount of work put forth. Are you still taking data on Lugers? If so, I made my initial post on 10/29/2013, titled: "First Post - DWM 30 Caliber Luger". It has photos and Serial Number and other markings information. If you need additional information, let me know and I will supply it. I will be giving the gun back to its owner soon. Your help is appreciated. THANKS!

Telh · 08-14-2017, 01:16 AM

I have a 1920 commercial 4 digit I luger let me know what info you want

jvm · 07-10-2020, 10:52 PM

I also just acquired a 1920 four digit 9mm commercial
It has a silver name plate on the front grip
How to look up the previous owner??

Pete · 03-28-2024, 01:30 PM

New to Lugers and have what I hope is not a stupid question. I have what I believe to be a 1923 model and noticed in the write up above the following:

1923 Commercial (upright c/N, 5-digit serial number)—first appears in 1916, productioncontinues until 1921

I am assuming the 1916 start is based on wartime manufactured Lugers being reworked however the 1921 production end is perplexing.

01-01-2014, 06:24 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	COMMERCIAL DATABASE DESIGNATIONS © 2014 Dwight Gruber Some of the collector designations used in the database and in these remarks may not be the ones collectors are used to seeing and using. The Luger/Parabellum/P08 is most commonly found as a military pistol. Its physical characteristics usually include markings of the manufacturer and date of production; or its production under a known foreign military contract, usually with its own serial number range. This has provided a convenient, consistent method of identification for the collectors of military Luger pistols. Collectors usually categorize commercial Lugers by a haphazard reference to dates based on long-standing tradition and conventional wisdom. While this has served as a common vocabulary, it does nothing to further the systematic understanding of commercial Lugers. It actually disinforms by applying dates and designations which bear no relation to the reality of Luger production: 1900—Swiss military designation 1902 Fat Barrel—made in 1903 1902 Carbine—made 1902 to 1906; all pertinent characteristics are those of standard Old Model 1903 French—made in 1906 1906—no official designation this date exists 190x/date (e.g., 1906/20)—Swiss military designation 08 Commercial—army designation Pistole 1908 1913 Commercial—no official designation this date exists 1914 Commercial—standard P08 with stock lug 1920 Commercial—Alphabet Commercial series begins 1921 1920 Carbine—manufacturing dates and circumstances unknown 1923 Commercial (upright c/N, 5-digit serial number)—first appears in 1916, productioncontinues until 1921 1929 DWM (s, t, u suffixes)—s suffix begins 1928, continues into v suffix in 1929 The nomenclature which follows is a systematic categorization of DWM commercially produced pistols based objectively on their characteristics and some related official (usually military) designations. These designations will be used henceforth in the database and succeeding discussions. There are three basic categories of the DWM Commercial Luger. These three categories are differentiated by substantive changes in design and construction: Parabellum, Old Model (alter Art, old form): flat recoil spring, dished toggle faces with toggle lock, grip safety, routed/polished thumb safety indicator. Parabellum, New Model (neues Art, new form): coiled recoil spring, flat toggle faces/no toggle lock, raised breechblock with loaded indicator, grip safety, routed/polished thumb safety indicator. Pistole 1908: coiled recoil spring, flat toggle faces, no grip safety, raised breechblock with loaded indicator, GESICHERT stamped thumb safety indicator. Within each model there are distinct types: Old Model manufactured 1900-1906 Standard Parabellum, Short-Frame Parabellum, Carbine, transitional “French”. New Model manufactured 1906-1913 Standard Parabellum, Navy Carbine. Pistole 1908 manufactured 1909-1929 Standard P08 (5-digit serial numbers) manufactured to 1921 Alphabet Commercial (4-digit with letter suffix serial number) manufactured 1921-1929 P08 Carbine Within each category there are variations, differences in fine details which, historically, collectors have found convenient to designate separately. These include: Old Model Parabellum, 7.65mm caliber Commercial Swiss American Eagle U.S. Army test pistols Bulgarian Russian Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped Old Model Short Frame, mostly 9mm caliber 9mm caliber with “fat” profile barrels Commercial American Eagle Powell Cartridge Counter Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped German and Dutch test pistols, usually 7.65mm, non-standard barrels Old Model Carbine, 7.65mm caliber 13½ inch barrel, tangent sights, wooden forend and detachable wood stock Commercial American Eagle Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed Stamped GERMANY or not stamped Old Model Transitional “French”,7.65mm caliber Flat recoil spring, flat toggle faces with toggle lock, New Model breechblock, New Model extractor marked CHARGE’ New Model Navy Carbine, 9mm caliber 6-inch barrel, two-position rear sight Stock lug and Navy-pattern wood shoulder stock Stamped with c/B,U,G proofs or not proofed Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped Some thumb safety mark stamped GESICHERT New Model Parabellum, 7.65mm and 9mm caliber Commercial Swiss American Eagle With c/B,U,G proofs, lazy or upright c/N proofed, or not proofed Long frame or short Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped Some thumb safety stamped GESICHERT Pistole 1908 9mm caliber, 7.65mm caliber after 1918 Commercial (5-digit) without stock lug, designated 08C With stock lug after 1914, designated P08 With c/B,U,G proofs or lazy c/N proofs, upright c/N proofs after 1916 Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or not stamped Some with military proofs Some engraved R.G. [number] With rebated sear bar after 1916 Very few with grip safety Some SAFE and LOADED P08 Carbine, post-WWI, 7.65mm and 9mm caliber Separate serial number sequence Many different barrel, sight, and stock/forend configurations Grip safety or no grip safety Alphabet Commercial, 7.65 caliber, 1921-1929 upright c/N proofs Stamped GERMANY on the frame under the serial number, or GERMANY or MADE IN GERMANY in other locations, or not stamped Some back-frame marked Krieghoff SUHL Very few with grip safety: Swiss, Commercial, AE Abercrombie & Fitch Stoeger import mark Finnish army Blank toggle/RIFF contract German Police Reichsmarine Within each variation there may be pistols with unique characteristics which are too uncommon to generalize. Last edited by Dwight Gruber; 01-08-2014 at 02:08 PM.

07-10-2020, 10:52 PM	#6
jvm User Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	1920 I also just acquired a 1920 four digit 9mm commercial It has a silver name plate on the front grip How to look up the previous owner??

03-28-2024, 01:30 PM	#7
Pete User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 5 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Inquiry New to Lugers and have what I hope is not a stupid question. I have what I believe to be a 1923 model and noticed in the write up above the following: 1923 Commercial (upright c/N, 5-digit serial number)—first appears in 1916, productioncontinues until 1921 I am assuming the 1916 start is based on wartime manufactured Lugers being reworked however the 1921 production end is perplexing.

01-02-2014, 01:11 AM	#3
JuneGrass 8 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Western Washington , city of Kent Posts: 14 Thanks: 6 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thank you Dwight , being very new to Luger Forums , and a desire to know more , your Database is GREAT . Thanks again Don

01-07-2014, 02:58 PM	#4
JesseMc User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Dwight - Very impressive in results and the amount of work put forth. Are you still taking data on Lugers? If so, I made my initial post on 10/29/2013, titled: "First Post - DWM 30 Caliber Luger". It has photos and Serial Number and other markings information. If you need additional information, let me know and I will supply it. I will be giving the gun back to its owner soon. Your help is appreciated. THANKS!

08-14-2017, 01:16 AM	#5
Telh New User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: West Palm Beach FL Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a 1920 commercial 4 digit I luger let me know what info you want