Info on Swiss Luger

barr44 · 08-11-2023, 06:28 PM

I have recently purchase a Swiss luger, and would like to get some
info on it. The pistol is very clean and I suspect it is a commercial
piece. Serial no. is 23857(bottom of barrel and front of grip. All numbers match and everything looks to be in order. The magazine is not great and is numbered 84 and is steel with a wood bottom. The
pistol has a cross on the left side of the barrel and a cross and a cross with an M above it on the left side of the receiver. There is a cross and the number 857 on the left side of the front toggle. There is also a small cross on the righthand side of the frame just above the front of the trigger guard. The pistol looks to be the 1904/06 variety 30cal. 6 inch barrel grip safety. The grips are checkered but look to be chased around the front and rear edges.
I would post pictures but haven't gotten the hang of that yet.
Any info would be appreciated. Thanks barr

Doubs · 08-11-2023, 07:53 PM

You have a military P'06 manufactured by W+F in Bern in the year 1924.

barr44 · 08-11-2023, 10:28 PM

If this is a military pistol, shouldn't it have some type of proofs or
something that would indicate it to be military? Does the serial no.
indicate military use?
Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to learn more about these pistols.
I thank you for your input.
barr

Doubs · 08-11-2023, 11:20 PM

The serial number establishes the date of manufacture as well as who made it. Does the front toggle link on top say "W+F" with "BERN" under it? The Swiss didn't mark their Lugers as generously as the Germans. Below is my P'06 Swiss military Luger made by DWM as a kit and sent to Switzerland to be completed there in 1910. It's in the 12000 serial number range. Note the proof marks in the same place as yours and how few they are. DWM provided the Swiss with Lugers until WW! forced them to stop deliveries and the Swiss found it necessary to make their own.

Ron Wood · 08-12-2023, 01:20 AM

The +/M marking is an indication that it is a military piece. The +/V marking on Doub’s Swiss Luger is the inspection mark for Major Vogelsang who performed military acceptance from 1897 to 1912. The +/M on your Swiss Luger indicates acceptance by Colonel Mühlemann, who was the inspector between 1913 and 1941.
Ron

mrerick · 08-12-2023, 01:49 PM

Swiss Lugers of different models are generally identifiable by their serial numbers.

Your Luger may have a large "P" stamped somewhere on it, indicating that it was privatized.

These were available for sale to the individual that they were issued to at time of retirement from Swiss military forces. They had the option to have them completely refurbished by the Bern arsenal at that time. Many Swiss Lugers are in exceptional condition. They are also constructed to exceptional levels of precision, which is one reason I really like them.

Ron Wood · 08-12-2023, 03:47 PM

Marc,
It appears that we are very much like-minded!

gunnertwo · 08-12-2023, 07:44 PM

Nice displays by Marc and Ron!

Ron, where did you get the stands for your Swiss Lugers?

G2

Ron Wood · 08-12-2023, 08:21 PM

I made them. They are black walnut and I wanted something a little out of the ordinary.

Ron Wood · 08-12-2023, 08:32 PM

Here is the 1900 by itself.

gunnertwo · 08-12-2023, 09:45 PM

Beautiful stands!

G2

barr44 · 08-12-2023, 10:18 PM

My middle toggle has a cross, below it WAFFENFABRIK, and below that BERN. The barrel has the serial no. on the bottom and a cross on the lefthand side. The receiver has a cross and and M with a cross above it, on the left forward side. There is a cross and three digits of the serial number on the left side of the breech block. The serial number is on the front of the frame. There is a cross on the righthand side of the frame just above the front of the trigger guard.
There are no other marks or numbers anywhere else that I can find. barr44

Mac Cat · 08-12-2023, 10:38 PM

The Swiss worked on the Bern factory all through WW-1 and starting shipping the month after WW-1 ended. Fred Datig, The Swiss Variations, (1955 p 49) shows serial number range 23251 - 24750 in 1924.

Doubs · 08-12-2023, 10:41 PM

"WAFFENFABRIK" is a combination of the words "Waffen" (weapons) and "Fabrik" (manufacturing) which is W+F. I should have spelled it out as I failed to consider that you may not know that. My apologies for the mistake.

But yes, that is how the Swiss manufactured P'06 military Lugers were marked.

barr44 · 08-13-2023, 10:06 PM

I do appreciate all of your efforts to enlighten me. I have always found this forum to be friendly and highly informative.
Again I would like to thank all of you for your inputs.
I now can enjoy my Swiss beauty, knowing that it is the real deal.
Thanks again to all,
barr44

reiver · 08-13-2023, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barr44

I do appreciate all of your efforts to enlighten me. I have always found this forum to be friendly and highly informative.
Again I would like to thank all of you for your inputs.
I now can enjoy my Swiss beauty, knowing that it is the real deal.
Thanks again to all,
barr44

You will enjoy it. As Ron said they are usually in pristine condition....never in a conflict and issued to one person/soldier (active or guard) that kept it at home and took excellent care of it. Mine is in like new condition...they are amazing Lugers and imo, underappreciated, but that makes them a good deal.

mrerick · 08-15-2023, 01:56 PM

Even when worn, the Swiss Bern arsenal offered to renew them (essentially to new condition) when they were decommissioned and privatized.

The Swiss are a nation of target shooters. Many that retired from their military service continued to compete in well attended events at Swiss ranges.

If you wanted to do this, or even anticipated selling the pistol after acquiring it, you would be well compensated by having a worn Luger rebuilt by the arsenal.

The Swiss Lugers are very well made, and to a high level of precision. Much of the metal of later revision pistols was fabricated by SIG at their Neuhausen facility.

08-11-2023, 06:28 PM	#1
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Info on Swiss Luger I have recently purchase a Swiss luger, and would like to get some info on it. The pistol is very clean and I suspect it is a commercial piece. Serial no. is 23857(bottom of barrel and front of grip. All numbers match and everything looks to be in order. The magazine is not great and is numbered 84 and is steel with a wood bottom. The pistol has a cross on the left side of the barrel and a cross and a cross with an M above it on the left side of the receiver. There is a cross and the number 857 on the left side of the front toggle. There is also a small cross on the righthand side of the frame just above the front of the trigger guard. The pistol looks to be the 1904/06 variety 30cal. 6 inch barrel grip safety. The grips are checkered but look to be chased around the front and rear edges. I would post pictures but haven't gotten the hang of that yet. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks barr

08-11-2023, 10:28 PM	#3
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Interesting! If this is a military pistol, shouldn't it have some type of proofs or something that would indicate it to be military? Does the serial no. indicate military use? Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to learn more about these pistols. I thank you for your input. barr

08-12-2023, 01:20 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	The +/M marking is an indication that it is a military piece. The +/V marking on Doub’s Swiss Luger is the inspection mark for Major Vogelsang who performed military acceptance from 1897 to 1912. The +/M on your Swiss Luger indicates acceptance by Colonel Mühlemann, who was the inspector between 1913 and 1941. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 08-12-2023 at 11:02 AM.

08-12-2023, 01:49 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Swiss Lugers of different models are generally identifiable by their serial numbers. Your Luger may have a large "P" stamped somewhere on it, indicating that it was privatized. These were available for sale to the individual that they were issued to at time of retirement from Swiss military forces. They had the option to have them completely refurbished by the Bern arsenal at that time. Many Swiss Lugers are in exceptional condition. They are also constructed to exceptional levels of precision, which is one reason I really like them. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-12-2023, 03:47 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Marc, It appears that we are very much like-minded! Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-11-2023, 07:53 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	You have a military P'06 manufactured by W+F in Bern in the year 1924.

08-11-2023, 11:20 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	The serial number establishes the date of manufacture as well as who made it. Does the front toggle link on top say "W+F" with "BERN" under it? The Swiss didn't mark their Lugers as generously as the Germans. Below is my P'06 Swiss military Luger made by DWM as a kit and sent to Switzerland to be completed there in 1910. It's in the 12000 serial number range. Note the proof marks in the same place as yours and how few they are. DWM provided the Swiss with Lugers until WW! forced them to stop deliveries and the Swiss found it necessary to make their own.

08-12-2023, 07:44 PM	#8
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 621 Thanks: 822 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	Nice displays by Marc and Ron! Ron, where did you get the stands for your Swiss Lugers? G2

08-12-2023, 08:21 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	I made them. They are black walnut and I wanted something a little out of the ordinary. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-12-2023, 08:32 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Here is the 1900 by itself. Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-12-2023, 09:45 PM	#11
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 621 Thanks: 822 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	Beautiful stands! G2

08-12-2023, 10:18 PM	#12
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	barr's Swiss P-08 My middle toggle has a cross, below it WAFFENFABRIK, and below that BERN. The barrel has the serial no. on the bottom and a cross on the lefthand side. The receiver has a cross and and M with a cross above it, on the left forward side. There is a cross and three digits of the serial number on the left side of the breech block. The serial number is on the front of the frame. There is a cross on the righthand side of the frame just above the front of the trigger guard. There are no other marks or numbers anywhere else that I can find. barr44

08-12-2023, 10:38 PM	#13
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 725 Thanks: 2,089 Thanked 606 Times in 327 Posts	The Swiss worked on the Bern factory all through WW-1 and starting shipping the month after WW-1 ended. Fred Datig, The Swiss Variations, (1955 p 49) shows serial number range 23251 - 24750 in 1924. Attached Images

08-12-2023, 10:41 PM	#14
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	"WAFFENFABRIK" is a combination of the words "Waffen" (weapons) and "Fabrik" (manufacturing) which is W+F. I should have spelled it out as I failed to consider that you may not know that. My apologies for the mistake. But yes, that is how the Swiss manufactured P'06 military Lugers were marked.

08-13-2023, 10:06 PM	#15
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Thank all of you for your input. I do appreciate all of your efforts to enlighten me. I have always found this forum to be friendly and highly informative. Again I would like to thank all of you for your inputs. I now can enjoy my Swiss beauty, knowing that it is the real deal. Thanks again to all, barr44

08-15-2023, 01:56 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Even when worn, the Swiss Bern arsenal offered to renew them (essentially to new condition) when they were decommissioned and privatized. The Swiss are a nation of target shooters. Many that retired from their military service continued to compete in well attended events at Swiss ranges. If you wanted to do this, or even anticipated selling the pistol after acquiring it, you would be well compensated by having a worn Luger rebuilt by the arsenal. The Swiss Lugers are very well made, and to a high level of precision. Much of the metal of later revision pistols was fabricated by SIG at their Neuhausen facility. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.