FrankenVickers No Longer!

Dwight Gruber · 12-31-2002, 11:51 PM

Thanks to the generosity and agreeable nature of our friend and compatriot Ed Tinker, I have started out the New Year with a Vickers frame and barrel/receiver to go underneath the Vickers toggle train of my former Dutch FrankenLuger.

I am delighted beyond all words at this turn of events, the satisfaction of a desire I've had since the age of eleven.

This didn't start out to be YANYS (Yet Aonther New Years Salutation), but I wish that everyone's new year goes so well.

Now, if I could just come up with a KOL barrel and receiver...

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 01-01-2003, 12:24 AM

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Some of us just can't stand for our brothers to be sad with Frankenburgers [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Besides, I have my eye on a Weimar Police or two... [img]smile.gif[/img] 'counting the dollars, selling the excess stuff...'

kidvett · 01-01-2003, 12:25 AM

Dwight,

GREAT! for that New Year's beginning.....

I happen to start that new year with a 1937 dated KRIEGHOFF [img]eek.gif[/img] ....but ONLY a reblued barreled receiver [img]frown.gif[/img] ...still it gets me a [img]smile.gif[/img] ...

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

Vlim · 01-01-2003, 02:02 PM

Hi Dwight,

Just out of curiosity: What parts originally formed your Dutch M11 Mix?

Also anothter question for other Dutch luger owners (Ed?) [img]smile.gif[/img]

I found a number of stamped letter markings on several parts of the frame and the barrel that I can't really explain using the info I have on hand (like the excellent 'Dutch luger' book. I'm wondering if these single letter markings are available on other M11s as well?

There are several marking visible on the left side of the frame, when the grip is removed. 2 letters on the right and left flat side of the frame. A letter about halfway, near the grip safetly and I also noticed one on the front of the barrel, just above the mouth of the gun (a letter 'D').

It kinda reminds me of 'painting by numbers' and I was wondering whether these markings were added for instruction purposes?

Dwight Gruber · 01-01-2003, 04:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
<strong>Just out of curiosity: What parts originally formed your Dutch M11 Mix?</strong><hr></blockquote>

FrankenVickers: a frame in the KOL serial range; a DWM commercial receiver (with P-08-style, relieved sear bar); a barrel of unkown manufacture; a Vickers toggle train. Also has poor black after-market grips.

RealVickers: a frame in the Vickers serial range; a receiver with proper sear bar but with left-side proof sanded away; a number-matching barrel with proper Vickers/English markings (but rebarrelled to the receiver, as the witness mark reveals); a DWM toggle train with proper extractor and appropriate Dutch number stampings. Left grip is coarse-checkered, native-wood Colonial manufacture in the Vickers number range, right grip is normal-checker in the KOL number range.

Luger interiors, in general, are covered with cryptic markings. The Vickers has Circle-N, Circle-S, J, under the grip IV (Roman numeral 4), other markings I can't interpret.

The KOL frame has the same Circle-S in the same place (in back of the trigger, hidden by the trigger plate); oddly, it is devoid of other markings, although the frame under the grips is pretty heavily rust-pitted which would obscure anything which might have been there.

GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryan "German Small Arms Marking" translation of the instructions for marking the P-08 notes (p 114) the permissable application of "Worker Stamps", Roman letters B through Z of specific sizes (A is specifically excluded, reserved for rejected parts as explained later in the text). I have not seen an explanation of the more cryptic markings.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 01-01-2003, 09:29 PM

Good research Dwight, better than anything I do! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Dwight Gruber · 01-01-2003, 10:09 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>Good research Dwight, better than anything I do! [img]smile.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ed, with the specialty you've picked out you'll learn...you'll learn!

--Dwight

Vlim · 01-02-2003, 04:07 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the info. Sounds logical [img]smile.gif[/img]

It seems that all these Dutch variations on the luger theme just show once again that we're basically cheapos. The Dutch army would re-use and re-use and re-use anything all the time. When I joined the military (draftee) I got an uzi with a 'repair' tag attached. When I got out 6 months later, the tag was still there...

The weird combinations of parts on dutch M11s therefore does not really surprise me anymore [img]smile.gif[/img]

Any brass sides plate with inscriptions?

Gerben

Dwight Gruber · 01-02-2003, 09:10 PM

Gerben,

No brass plates, and no evidence that any were ever there.

--Dwight

12-31-2002, 11:51 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	FrankenVickers No Longer! Thanks to the generosity and agreeable nature of our friend and compatriot Ed Tinker, I have started out the New Year with a Vickers frame and barrel/receiver to go underneath the Vickers toggle train of my former Dutch FrankenLuger. I am delighted beyond all words at this turn of events, the satisfaction of a desire I've had since the age of eleven. This didn't start out to be YANYS (Yet Aonther New Years Salutation), but I wish that everyone's new year goes so well. Now, if I could just come up with a KOL barrel and receiver... --Dwight

01-01-2003, 12:24 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,917 Thanks: 1,996 Thanked 4,508 Times in 2,082 Posts	[img]smile.gif[/img] Some of us just can't stand for our brothers to be sad with Frankenburgers [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Besides, I have my eye on a Weimar Police or two... [img]smile.gif[/img] 'counting the dollars, selling the excess stuff...' __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-01-2003, 09:29 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,917 Thanks: 1,996 Thanked 4,508 Times in 2,082 Posts	Good research Dwight, better than anything I do! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-01-2003, 12:25 AM	#3
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Dwight, GREAT! for that New Year's beginning..... I happen to start that new year with a 1937 dated KRIEGHOFF [img]eek.gif[/img] ....but ONLY a reblued barreled receiver [img]frown.gif[/img] ...still it gets me a [img]smile.gif[/img] ... HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" /> kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

01-01-2003, 02:02 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hi Dwight, Just out of curiosity: What parts originally formed your Dutch M11 Mix? Also anothter question for other Dutch luger owners (Ed?) [img]smile.gif[/img] I found a number of stamped letter markings on several parts of the frame and the barrel that I can't really explain using the info I have on hand (like the excellent 'Dutch luger' book. I'm wondering if these single letter markings are available on other M11s as well? There are several marking visible on the left side of the frame, when the grip is removed. 2 letters on the right and left flat side of the frame. A letter about halfway, near the grip safetly and I also noticed one on the front of the barrel, just above the mouth of the gun (a letter 'D'). It kinda reminds me of 'painting by numbers' and I was wondering whether these markings were added for instruction purposes?

01-01-2003, 04:02 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren: <strong>Just out of curiosity: What parts originally formed your Dutch M11 Mix?</strong><hr></blockquote> FrankenVickers: a frame in the KOL serial range; a DWM commercial receiver (with P-08-style, relieved sear bar); a barrel of unkown manufacture; a Vickers toggle train. Also has poor black after-market grips. RealVickers: a frame in the Vickers serial range; a receiver with proper sear bar but with left-side proof sanded away; a number-matching barrel with proper Vickers/English markings (but rebarrelled to the receiver, as the witness mark reveals); a DWM toggle train with proper extractor and appropriate Dutch number stampings. Left grip is coarse-checkered, native-wood Colonial manufacture in the Vickers number range, right grip is normal-checker in the KOL number range. Luger interiors, in general, are covered with cryptic markings. The Vickers has Circle-N, Circle-S, J, under the grip IV (Roman numeral 4), other markings I can't interpret. The KOL frame has the same Circle-S in the same place (in back of the trigger, hidden by the trigger plate); oddly, it is devoid of other markings, although the frame under the grips is pretty heavily rust-pitted which would obscure anything which might have been there. GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryan "German Small Arms Marking" translation of the instructions for marking the P-08 notes (p 114) the permissable application of "Worker Stamps", Roman letters B through Z of specific sizes (A is specifically excluded, reserved for rejected parts as explained later in the text). I have not seen an explanation of the more cryptic markings. --Dwight

01-01-2003, 10:09 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>Good research Dwight, better than anything I do! [img]smile.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote> Ed, with the specialty you've picked out you'll learn...you'll learn! --Dwight

01-02-2003, 04:07 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hi, Thanks for the info. Sounds logical [img]smile.gif[/img] It seems that all these Dutch variations on the luger theme just show once again that we're basically cheapos. The Dutch army would re-use and re-use and re-use anything all the time. When I joined the military (draftee) I got an uzi with a 'repair' tag attached. When I got out 6 months later, the tag was still there... The weird combinations of parts on dutch M11s therefore does not really surprise me anymore [img]smile.gif[/img] Any brass sides plate with inscriptions? Gerben

01-02-2003, 09:10 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Gerben, No brass plates, and no evidence that any were ever there. --Dwight