Toggle sticking open - Page 2

Military Engineer · 09-06-2021, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Swap out the L-shaped holdopen and see if it helps.

I did. There was no change. This was one of the first items I checked when the problem became rampant.

In case I never mentioned it, with no magazine installed in the pistol, I can pull the toggle back as if I'm cycling a round for shooting and the toggle will stick back. Just a thumb tap and it goes forward as normal. Does it with or without the hold open, so I know that isn't it. The problem is relatively recent, too, which is why I'm ordering new springs.

For anyone reading: I am ordering the multipack from Wolff, with the 36, 38, and 40# springs. Which is the one that is standard issue? It says 38# is the standard, but I figuered the more knowledgable here would know.

G.T. · 09-06-2021, 10:27 PM

Hi Mark, I have seen, only once, where the ejector was hanging up on the corresponding groove in the breechblock, It wasn't locked all the way back, but was stuck pretty tightly most of the way back? remove the ejector and see if it affects the outcome?... best, GT

Military Engineer · 09-07-2021, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Mark, I have seen, only once, where the ejector was hanging up on the corresponding groove in the breechblock, It wasn't locked all the way back, but was stuck pretty tightly most of the way back? remove the ejector and see if it affects the outcome?... best, GT

An interesting idea. Never considered it, figuring there was no way a part that small could do that. I will check that as well.

Proofed · 09-07-2021, 08:43 AM

could the mainspring be broken ?

G.T. · 09-07-2021, 10:59 AM

Something that could be the culprit that i haven't seen mentioned is the barrel flange could be interfering with the frame on the bottom of the chamber area in the front of the pistol? This is more likely to happen than one might think? It is very close tolerance and can be checked for very easily... best, til...lat'r....GT...

BTW, this is also the area that receives the most deformation during re-barreling and it could be a result of that type of operation?...
BTW squared, remember what I recently said about the cure being as far away from the problem as you can get! This could be one of those!!!

Military Engineer · 09-07-2021, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Something that could be the culprit that i haven't seen mentioned is the barrel flange could be interfering with the frame on the bottom of the chamber area in the front of the pistol? This is more likely to happen than one might think? It is very close tolerance and can be checked for very easily... best, til...lat'r....GT...

BTW, this is also the area that receives the most deformation during re-barreling and it could be a result of that type of operation?...
BTW squared, remember what I recently said about the cure being as far away from the problem as you can get! This could be one of those!!!

Possibly. That would seem to be related to fork misalignment, so I'll recheck that.

Military Engineer · 09-07-2021, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proofed

could the mainspring be broken ?

No, but there are a number of people who are thinking that despite the age, the main spring may be weak and need replacement.

One thing, as I think about this, is that I haven't considered that the mainspring that was supposedly replaced could have been replaced with a weaker one than original. That could be why it looks new but is potentially failing. It is one explanation that would fit the circumstances. The exact same thing happened several years ago on my P226 when I replaced it with a spring that was 30% lighter than the original. It lasted a couple of years and one day, all of a sudden, stopped striking primers hard enough to ignite. So I'm going to wait and see when I get new springs.

There still feels like some sort of interference in the pulling of the toggle, so that has to be considered.

Vlim · 09-07-2021, 11:12 AM

With most likely candidates ruled out, how about the S-shaped connecting hook being bent out of shape?

gunbugs · 09-08-2021, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

With most likely candidates ruled out, how about the S-shaped connecting hook being bent out of shape?

Pointed that out in post 11. Folks seem to think it's the mainspring. What do I know?

mrerick · 09-08-2021, 09:37 AM

The Luger action is finely balanced. There were a range of recoil springs used in the different models and eras of Lugers. The forum FAQ document has a copy of the table.

Recoil springs came in different wire thicknesses with different numbers of coils.

If you remove the recoil spring, you can manually operate the action and feel if it is binding at different points in it's cycle, and especially toward the end of it's movement. If there is no binding of any kind, look to the possibility of wear or deformation changing the geometry of the hooks or s link in the recoil spring linkage. Also check for wear of the frame where the axel pin rides.

Removal and installation of the recoil spring is a fairly specialized job. It takes a properly designed tool to actually do it without damaging the gun or yourself. Use great care... it's under fair compression.

Our FAQ is free and can be downloaded by following the FAQ link on every forum page.

Vlim · 09-08-2021, 11:42 AM

I would not expect a weak or strong mainspring to keep the toggle locked back. That's why I'm considering the linking mechanism (s-hook and lever) as most other causes have been ruled out.

But remote diagnosis is difficult.

G.T. · 09-08-2021, 01:59 PM

Hi Mark, in my previous post I mentioned that the receiver might be touching on the front of the frame, actually it occurs when the "New" barrels flange is a few thousands larger dia. then the receiver, and it can then drag or stick on the frame relief area?... best, GT

Military Engineer · 09-08-2021, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

I would not expect a weak or strong mainspring to keep the toggle locked back. That's why I'm considering the linking mechanism (s-hook and lever) as most other causes have been ruled out.

But remote diagnosis is difficult.

I will need to check the blue prints I have, but in the event it does not have it, do you have the exact dimensions of the toggle link ("S" link)?

G.T. · 09-08-2021, 11:34 PM

Hi Mark, I've included an "S" coupling link in with what i sent you... should arrive soon... best, til...lat'r...GT

4 Scale · 09-10-2021, 09:01 AM

Could you describe "the toggle sticks in the open bolt position" a little better? If by this description you mean the toggle only partially closes (does not fully return to battery), I have had this issue before on a couple shooters. I traced the problem to a defective extractor on one. On the other, the culprit was too-weak ammo.

Heinz · 09-10-2021, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Could you describe "the toggle sticks in the open bolt position" a little better? If by this description you mean the toggle only partially closes (does not fully return to battery), I have had this issue before on a couple shooters. I traced the problem to a defective extractor on one. On the other, the culprit was too-weak ammo.

See post 13. It sticks in the fully open position

4 Scale · 09-11-2021, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heinz

See post 13. It sticks in the fully open position

I did see that post, thank you. I also read post #23, that reports that with the hold open removed it 'stays the same'. A Luger that locks open with no hold-open I find astounding. I feel I have at least a working knowledge of Luger operation and can think of no scenario that would permit a Luger to lock open with no hold open present. Hence my request for a description of what exactly "sticks open" means.

I can't lose by asking this question. If the OP advises that indeed the pistol is locking open with no hold open in the gun, I will have learned something. If he advises the toggle is doing something short of locking open, we will have valuable clarification and be able to better assist.

rhuff · 09-12-2021, 04:28 PM

The way I read the OP is that the toggle train "sticks in the full open position", and a slight bump and it goes to battery. It is not locking in the full open position like one would with a functional toggle lock in a normal situation. Anyway, that is how I understand the OP.

Military Engineer · 09-13-2021, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

I did see that post, thank you. I also read post #23, that reports that with the hold open removed it 'stays the same'. A Luger that locks open with no hold-open I find astounding. I feel I have at least a working knowledge of Luger operation and can think of no scenario that would permit a Luger to lock open with no hold open present. Hence my request for a description of what exactly "sticks open" means.

I can't lose by asking this question. If the OP advises that indeed the pistol is locking open with no hold open in the gun, I will have learned something. If he advises the toggle is doing something short of locking open, we will have valuable clarification and be able to better assist.

Yes. When the problem became pretty bad a few weeks ago, I originally thought the hold open spring or something was bad. While I was at the range, I took it apart and completely removed the hold open, spring and all.

The toggle takes a little effort to pull back and when I get it back, it stays there, almost as if there's binding. The problem is relatively recent, so I'm not sure what to make of it, but GT sent me some test parts to eliminate some possibilities.

If I pull the bolt partially back, then it will usually return to battery, but many times, if I pull the toggle PARTIALLY back, say about 2/3 or 3/4, it will go ALMOST all the way home; ie it will leave the action open, ie about a 1/4 inch between the bolt face and the chamber with the toggle up between 1/8 and 1/4 inch.

For your edification, I have learned, and had it reinforced, that Lugers that are rebarreled as mine has been, sometimes get the forks bent just a hair and it would cause the issue. The rebarreling of this one happened over 6 years ago, so I'm doubtful of the idea this is the issue, but at this point, I'm open to whatever it may be.

I'm as absolutely curious now as everyone else. I'd like my baby back in shooting condition.

I just got off my reserve weekend this evening, so perhaps tomorrow afternoon after work, I'm going to set about doing some testing.

Military Engineer · 09-13-2021, 02:31 AM

So...I thought I'd update a little before I went to bed. I got bored and decided to do a little testing.

GT was very kind in sending me a stripped upper receiver and stripped toggle train; that is to say --no striker,
--no extractor,
--no ejector,
--no sear bar,
--no sear bar spring,
--no barrel

Just the:
--bolt block
--front toggle
--rear toggle link
--"S" link

His works smoothly and with no resistance at all. Bolt block slides in and out of the forks with virtually zero resistance. I already have an idea of my problem, as my bolt block has significant resistance compared to his just going into the grooves in the forks.

Test 1: Replaced my upper with his upper as a complete unit. I removed my sear bar, sear bar spring and extractor to make things match. Problem is gone. Toggle pulls back with zero issues and goes home every time. No hang ups at all.

Test 2: my upper and his toggle train with "S" link. Bolt block has significant resistance going into the forks and at least twice got really tight when in full battery. Problem has returned and requires slightly more force to pull back the toggle and just a slightly harder tap to close into battery.

Test 3: His upper and my toggle train and "S" link. My bolts slips very easily into his upper. Virtually no resistance, just as his toggle does in his upper. But still, the problem has returned. Toggle sticks open when pulled completely back, but takes less "push" by my thumb to close the bolt and go into battery.

As I do this, I'm beginning to suspect that my original premise of a number of things coming together are causing the issue. I'm going to try and post some pix later, but there is a wear in places that indicate possible binding around the "shoulders" of the frame and on the bottom of one side of the fork rail. I'm also beginning to suspect that the shoulders of the frame behind the toggle have possibly been bent inward a bit owing to some strange wear patterns on the toggle train at the rear axle pin. Also, the middle axle pin, connecting the front and rear toggle parts at the top protrudes a bit and seems to bind up a little at the right side of the frame.

I'm going to get some machinist's dye and coat all of the internal metal parts and see where it rubs off. I'm going to test a hypothesis:

I think the forks on mine are torqued a bit, as a few others have surmised, during the rebarreling process long ago and it has just gotten bad enough now. The fact is that the test receiver easily accepts both bolts, and mine resists both of them.

I am simply not sure, but that's where I am and it's time for bed. Any insights with the new info would be appreciated.

09-07-2021, 08:43 AM	#4
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	mainspring could the mainspring be broken ?

09-07-2021, 10:59 AM	#5
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,523 Thanks: 1,321 Thanked 3,707 Times in 1,012 Posts	Just thought of it! Something that could be the culprit that i haven't seen mentioned is the barrel flange could be interfering with the frame on the bottom of the chamber area in the front of the pistol? This is more likely to happen than one might think? It is very close tolerance and can be checked for very easily... best, til...lat'r....GT... BTW, this is also the area that receives the most deformation during re-barreling and it could be a result of that type of operation?... BTW squared, remember what I recently said about the cure being as far away from the problem as you can get! This could be one of those!!!

09-08-2021, 09:37 AM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	The Luger action is finely balanced. There were a range of recoil springs used in the different models and eras of Lugers. The forum FAQ document has a copy of the table. Recoil springs came in different wire thicknesses with different numbers of coils. If you remove the recoil spring, you can manually operate the action and feel if it is binding at different points in it's cycle, and especially toward the end of it's movement. If there is no binding of any kind, look to the possibility of wear or deformation changing the geometry of the hooks or s link in the recoil spring linkage. Also check for wear of the frame where the axel pin rides. Removal and installation of the recoil spring is a fairly specialized job. It takes a properly designed tool to actually do it without damaging the gun or yourself. Use great care... it's under fair compression. Our FAQ is free and can be downloaded by following the FAQ link on every forum page. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-08-2021, 01:59 PM	#12
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,523 Thanks: 1,321 Thanked 3,707 Times in 1,012 Posts	re-barrel issue Hi Mark, in my previous post I mentioned that the receiver might be touching on the front of the frame, actually it occurs when the "New" barrels flange is a few thousands larger dia. then the receiver, and it can then drag or stick on the frame relief area?... best, GT

09-08-2021, 11:34 PM	#14
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,523 Thanks: 1,321 Thanked 3,707 Times in 1,012 Posts	one coming Hi Mark, I've included an "S" coupling link in with what i sent you... should arrive soon... best, til...lat'r...GT

09-06-2021, 10:27 PM	#2
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,523 Thanks: 1,321 Thanked 3,707 Times in 1,012 Posts	very rarely... Hi Mark, I have seen, only once, where the ejector was hanging up on the corresponding groove in the breechblock, It wasn't locked all the way back, but was stuck pretty tightly most of the way back? remove the ejector and see if it affects the outcome?... best, GT

09-07-2021, 11:12 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	With most likely candidates ruled out, how about the S-shaped connecting hook being bent out of shape?

09-08-2021, 11:42 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	I would not expect a weak or strong mainspring to keep the toggle locked back. That's why I'm considering the linking mechanism (s-hook and lever) as most other causes have been ruled out. But remote diagnosis is difficult.

09-10-2021, 09:01 AM	#15
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 490 Times in 251 Posts	Could you describe "the toggle sticks in the open bolt position" a little better? If by this description you mean the toggle only partially closes (does not fully return to battery), I have had this issue before on a couple shooters. I traced the problem to a defective extractor on one. On the other, the culprit was too-weak ammo.

09-12-2021, 04:28 PM	#18
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,305 Thanks: 2,735 Thanked 991 Times in 727 Posts	The way I read the OP is that the toggle train "sticks in the full open position", and a slight bump and it goes to battery. It is not locking in the full open position like one would with a functional toggle lock in a normal situation. Anyway, that is how I understand the OP. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

09-13-2021, 02:31 AM	#20
Military Engineer User Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 41 Thanks: 9 Thanked 37 Times in 12 Posts	So...I thought I'd update a little before I went to bed. I got bored and decided to do a little testing. GT was very kind in sending me a stripped upper receiver and stripped toggle train; that is to say --no striker, --no extractor, --no ejector, --no sear bar, --no sear bar spring, --no barrel Just the: --bolt block --front toggle --rear toggle link --"S" link His works smoothly and with no resistance at all. Bolt block slides in and out of the forks with virtually zero resistance. I already have an idea of my problem, as my bolt block has significant resistance compared to his just going into the grooves in the forks. Test 1: Replaced my upper with his upper as a complete unit. I removed my sear bar, sear bar spring and extractor to make things match. Problem is gone. Toggle pulls back with zero issues and goes home every time. No hang ups at all. Test 2: my upper and his toggle train with "S" link. Bolt block has significant resistance going into the forks and at least twice got really tight when in full battery. Problem has returned and requires slightly more force to pull back the toggle and just a slightly harder tap to close into battery. Test 3: His upper and my toggle train and "S" link. My bolts slips very easily into his upper. Virtually no resistance, just as his toggle does in his upper. But still, the problem has returned. Toggle sticks open when pulled completely back, but takes less "push" by my thumb to close the bolt and go into battery. As I do this, I'm beginning to suspect that my original premise of a number of things coming together are causing the issue. I'm going to try and post some pix later, but there is a wear in places that indicate possible binding around the "shoulders" of the frame and on the bottom of one side of the fork rail. I'm also beginning to suspect that the shoulders of the frame behind the toggle have possibly been bent inward a bit owing to some strange wear patterns on the toggle train at the rear axle pin. Also, the middle axle pin, connecting the front and rear toggle parts at the top protrudes a bit and seems to bind up a little at the right side of the frame. I'm going to get some machinist's dye and coat all of the internal metal parts and see where it rubs off. I'm going to test a hypothesis: I think the forks on mine are torqued a bit, as a few others have surmised, during the rebarreling process long ago and it has just gotten bad enough now. The fact is that the test receiver easily accepts both bolts, and mine resists both of them. I am simply not sure, but that's where I am and it's time for bed. Any insights with the new info would be appreciated.