Identify Swiss Luger

dz · 03-17-2021, 12:44 PM

Could use some help identifing this swiss luger. pictures attached. Value would be a great help also. thanks

Doubs · 03-17-2021, 01:00 PM

Looks to be a post-WW1 DWM model 1906 commercial Luger sold as a commercial pistol on the Swiss civilian market. It's interesting that it has the serial number on the left receiver in the military style but all else is commercial.

The cross in sunburst was used by DWM to mark Swiss commercial Lugers and also the first 9000 Swiss military 1906 Lugers. However, the crown/N shows that the gun was proofed in Germany and not by Swiss military authorities.

At some point, your Luger was imported into the US as evidenced by the "GERMANY" stamp on the frame.

That is a beautiful example of a commercial Swiss Luger.

dz · 03-17-2021, 03:02 PM

Thanks for the great description, much appreciated. David

Dwight Gruber · 03-18-2021, 01:27 AM

This pistol bears most of the characteristics of a Swiss Alphabet Commercial. In the difficult case of this pistol, this is identified by the blocky appearance of the left frame rail, without chamfering, ahead of the the sideplate. Beyond that it is hard to know where to start. To begin with, the gun has been refinished. This is identified most clearly by the re-cutting of the polished safety indication.

Re-finishing would account for the anomalous fame-front serial number. The number itself relates to no recognized serial range. It appears that the front of the frame has been considerably ground back (note the difference in length of the receiver where it meets the frame front) necessitating re-stamping of the serial number. The number stamps themselves do not match period number style, and a letter suffix has not been retained. The suffix would probably be i (most likely), n, or l. There is no independent way to identify this, as the frame suffix appears nowhere else.

The serial number stamped on the left receiver is characteristic of Swiss Alphabet Commercials.

The c/N receiver proof is evidence that the pistol was completed at DWM (not all were). There does not appear to be a proof on the barrel above the serial number. The photo is a bad angle for determination; a straight-on photo of that area would be useful.

The barrel with front sight is characteristic of a particular DWM assembly for the Swiss market. It is uncommon. Absence of a proof suggests a re-barrel. It is highly unlikely this would have been done in Switzerland, as the Swiss overwhelmingly preferred the 4 3/4 inch "pencil" barrel. In addition, a Swiss applied barrel serial number would have been stamped along the bore axis, not across. The barrel remains mysterious.

The magazine with its metal grip discs is a Swiss military item. The original would have had a plain wood base.

--Dwight

mrerick · 03-18-2021, 09:47 AM

What caliber is the pistol?

Doubs · 03-18-2021, 12:30 PM

I'm not convinced that the pistol has been refinished. The toggle pin remains in the white suggesting that the toggle train retains it's original finish. The frame lines are still sharp and not rounded as would be expected if it had been refinished.

IMO, only a hands-on examination would provide a definitive answer as to it being refinished.

dz · 03-18-2021, 12:48 PM

cal is 30 luger

Dwight Gruber · 03-18-2021, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubs

I'm not convinced that the pistol has been refinished. The toggle pin remains in the white suggesting that the toggle train retains it's original finish. The frame lines are still sharp and not rounded as would be expected if it had been refinished.

IMO, only a hands-on examination would provide a definitive answer as to it being refinished.

There are some pretty good refinish craftsmen out there. I think that if we could see a good picture of the pin it would be smoothed, that is, removed and reinserted. You are correct about the hands-on examination in the case of this pistol. A series of very specific, detailed pictures would go a long way.

--Dwight

rhuff · 03-18-2021, 04:06 PM

In a couple of the photos, my first impression was that it has been refinished, It is sometimes very hard to tell from photos only.

dz · 03-18-2021, 04:25 PM

My intention was to identify the luger which I have, but I have never thought the luger was refinished. Thanks

Lugerdoc · 03-19-2021, 10:21 AM

Both the Swiss and the Dutch had programs of refinishing &/or rebarrelling their military lugers as needed. TH

mrerick · 03-24-2021, 04:20 PM

There is a formal arsenal program of rebuilding, reconditioning and refinishing Swiss Lugers. The officer that was issued the pistol could either have it privatized and take it home as is, or have it redone in the refurbishment program as part of the process.

Dwight Gruber · 03-24-2021, 05:58 PM

It appears that the Swiss army undertook pistol refinishing. However, this particular example is a DWM commercial manufacture pistol, and would not have been in the Swiss military chain of custody.

--Dwight

drbuster · 04-07-2021, 03:43 PM

Dwight's description of this commercial Swiss is very detailed and accurate. Most examples of this I have seen were all in the "i" suffix. It is an unusual variant. Of interest, Simpson LTD has two examples for sale on their web site, both asking prices just north of $3K.

03-17-2021, 12:44 PM	#1
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Identify Swiss Luger Could use some help identifing this swiss luger. pictures attached. Value would be a great help also. thanks Attached Thumbnails

03-18-2021, 09:47 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	What caliber is the pistol? __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-18-2021, 04:06 PM	#9
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	In a couple of the photos, my first impression was that it has been refinished, It is sometimes very hard to tell from photos only. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

03-19-2021, 10:21 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Both the Swiss and the Dutch had programs of refinishing &/or rebarrelling their military lugers as needed. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-24-2021, 04:20 PM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	There is a formal arsenal program of rebuilding, reconditioning and refinishing Swiss Lugers. The officer that was issued the pistol could either have it privatized and take it home as is, or have it redone in the refurbishment program as part of the process. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-17-2021, 01:00 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,686 Times in 554 Posts	Looks to be a post-WW1 DWM model 1906 commercial Luger sold as a commercial pistol on the Swiss civilian market. It's interesting that it has the serial number on the left receiver in the military style but all else is commercial. The cross in sunburst was used by DWM to mark Swiss commercial Lugers and also the first 9000 Swiss military 1906 Lugers. However, the crown/N shows that the gun was proofed in Germany and not by Swiss military authorities. At some point, your Luger was imported into the US as evidenced by the "GERMANY" stamp on the frame. That is a beautiful example of a commercial Swiss Luger.

03-17-2021, 03:02 PM	#3
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Thanks for the great description, much appreciated. David

03-18-2021, 01:27 AM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	This pistol bears most of the characteristics of a Swiss Alphabet Commercial. In the difficult case of this pistol, this is identified by the blocky appearance of the left frame rail, without chamfering, ahead of the the sideplate. Beyond that it is hard to know where to start. To begin with, the gun has been refinished. This is identified most clearly by the re-cutting of the polished safety indication. Re-finishing would account for the anomalous fame-front serial number. The number itself relates to no recognized serial range. It appears that the front of the frame has been considerably ground back (note the difference in length of the receiver where it meets the frame front) necessitating re-stamping of the serial number. The number stamps themselves do not match period number style, and a letter suffix has not been retained. The suffix would probably be i (most likely), n, or l. There is no independent way to identify this, as the frame suffix appears nowhere else. The serial number stamped on the left receiver is characteristic of Swiss Alphabet Commercials. The c/N receiver proof is evidence that the pistol was completed at DWM (not all were). There does not appear to be a proof on the barrel above the serial number. The photo is a bad angle for determination; a straight-on photo of that area would be useful. The barrel with front sight is characteristic of a particular DWM assembly for the Swiss market. It is uncommon. Absence of a proof suggests a re-barrel. It is highly unlikely this would have been done in Switzerland, as the Swiss overwhelmingly preferred the 4 3/4 inch "pencil" barrel. In addition, a Swiss applied barrel serial number would have been stamped along the bore axis, not across. The barrel remains mysterious. The magazine with its metal grip discs is a Swiss military item. The original would have had a plain wood base. --Dwight

03-18-2021, 12:30 PM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,686 Times in 554 Posts	I'm not convinced that the pistol has been refinished. The toggle pin remains in the white suggesting that the toggle train retains it's original finish. The frame lines are still sharp and not rounded as would be expected if it had been refinished. IMO, only a hands-on examination would provide a definitive answer as to it being refinished.

03-18-2021, 12:48 PM	#7
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	cal is 30 luger

03-18-2021, 04:25 PM	#10
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	My intention was to identify the luger which I have, but I have never thought the luger was refinished. Thanks

03-24-2021, 05:58 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	It appears that the Swiss army undertook pistol refinishing. However, this particular example is a DWM commercial manufacture pistol, and would not have been in the Swiss military chain of custody. --Dwight

04-07-2021, 03:43 PM	#14
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dwight's description of this commercial Swiss is very detailed and accurate. Most examples of this I have seen were all in the "i" suffix. It is an unusual variant. Of interest, Simpson LTD has two examples for sale on their web site, both asking prices just north of $3K.