1900 Swiss Rear Toggle Link Replaced?

CptCurl · 03-04-2019, 08:21 AM

This is a current listing on GB I was looking at. The seller is quite proud of this pistol, going by the description. Link: Luger, 1900 Swiss, Military, Wide Trigger, Holster

I was alarmed to notice the rear toggle link with no knurling. There's no mention of it in the description.

What could it be? Did the Swiss arsenal adapt an 06/29 rear toggle link as a replacement on a 1900? Does anybody have an idea what might cause the failure of a rear toggle link; and thus, its replacement? I would think this is a pretty robust part.

Or if I'm all wet, please tell me so. I am no expert.

Here's a copy and paste quote of the GB description:

Beautiful, scarce and highly desirable M1900 Swiss Luger, military, with wide trigger, usually found in the 3000-4000 serial range with holster. SN: 4082. Cal: 30 Luger. Standard configuration with 4.75” tapered barrel with drift adjustable front sight and fixed rear sight. Flat top breech block, with toggle train having dished ears and anti-rebound arm. Chamber marked with Swiss cross in sunburst. Intertwined DWM on middle toggle link. Small Swiss proofs on left side of barrel, left receiver, and back of frame. Full serial number under barrel and forward frame. All small parts correctly serialed except takedown lever that is unmarked. Usual strawed small parts. Finely checkered walnut grips, both panels matching. Correct original magazine, unmarked with base having inserted disks. Complete with brown leather holster having ownership identification inside lid, now fitted with spare magazine pouch. Obverse surface with ownership and manufacturer marking, dated “1905”. Condition: At least 98% arsenal blue, with particularly crisp grip straps, the rear having a spot of holster wear at the base. All the strawed and fire blued parts have been freshened. Very bright, nearly mirror, bore. Perfect manual mechanics. Near excellent holster with supple leather. Forward belt loop beginning to separate. No suggestion of restitching. An extremely attractive example of one of the most desirable M1900 Swiss Military Lugers. A HISTORIC INVESTMENT! A-34

Lugerdoc · 03-04-2019, 09:55 AM

I agree with your question. All the original M1900 rear toggle links that I've seen, do have some knurlling on the forward edge on both sides. The only explanation that comes to mind, is that on your M1900 #4082 that the Swiss may have removed the knurlling during a rework. TH

Vlim · 03-04-2019, 11:53 AM

Not uncommon to see fixed/repaired parts on Swiss lugers. If they needed fixing, they were fixed, that simple.

If original parts were not available, more recent spares were used.

Replaced rear toggles are not uncommon, and because they switched to non-checkered rear toggles in 1929, that is what they used for repairs after that time. Since these look different from the originals, it catches the eye. Other repairs are not that visible.

CptCurl · 03-05-2019, 11:22 AM

Both responses agree that the rear toggle link is a replacement, evidently crafted from a later part consistent with the post-1929 toggles used by the Swiss in Lugers they manufactured. That is exactly what I had thought.

My secondary question asked, "Does anybody have an idea what might cause the failure of a rear toggle link; and thus, its replacement? I would think this is a pretty robust part."

I'm still trying to get my head around what could cause a rear toggle link to fail. I am no engineer, nor a gunsmith. I've owned and shot a fair number of Lugers, but I've never seen one that gave indication of trouble in the toggle train. Can anybody add light to this?

Thanks,
Curl

P.S. This is not my gun, and I have no intention of buying or attempting to buy it. I ask these questions only to learn. This is the only old model Luger I have ever seen or heard of that had smooth toggle ears.

Stucki · 03-05-2019, 02:15 PM

Cracks in the rear toogle were not uncommon among pistols in 1900 and 1900/06. As Vlim has already mentioned, the defective parts were often replaced by rear toogles of pistols 06/29. This was done by the W+F but also by local gunsmith.

This pistol 1900/06 (W+F, SN 18251) was repaired by the W+F in the 1940's . The owner of the gun was the Director of the M+F (ammunition factory in Thun, Switzerland).

Alexander

DonVoigt · 03-05-2019, 02:22 PM

Why would it fail?
Possibly:
-imperfections(inclusions) in the steel, not visible from the outside
- stress crack from forging, too small to see until it "grows" with use
- abuse(heavy/hot loads or many thousands of rounds fired".

Most cracks originate from sharp (square) inside corners, where firing stresses can be concentrated.

CptCurl · 03-05-2019, 05:18 PM

Thanks for these explanations. I really appreciate your replies.

Curl

mrerick · 03-05-2019, 06:57 PM

We need to make this thread a "sticky" for it's excellent reference information.

Thanks to the posters...

LU1900 · 03-05-2019, 09:29 PM

Could it be from some commemorative 1900 Mauser 70' ?
And the grip safety , not half sise at rear?

Vlim · 03-06-2019, 07:19 AM

Commemorative Mausers were checkered.
Only a few pre production Mauser Parabellums had smooth toggle knobs. Normal production and commemoratives all had checkered knobs.

Grip safety looks normal to me, but could be a 1906 style replacement.

But one of the reasons Mauser was allowed to take over Swiss tools and drawings in the late 1960s was that W+F had the possibility to have Mauser make spares when needed. I found a few hints about it in the archives but no clear evidence that Mauser actually supplied parts to Bern.

As late as 1969 W+F asked about model 1900 leaf springs... which Mauser could not deliver, as they didn't make them.

zork · 10-26-2020, 11:59 PM

Curl, In the early 80s i saw a 1900 Swiss with that exact rear toggle. It was marked on the underside E25+ (like 4082). I assumed it was a replacement part made in 1925 specifically for old model Lugers. Never saw another till now. Unfortunately I didn't record the info.

spangy · 10-27-2020, 12:49 PM

Hi CptCurl

Wow ... what a beautiful gun. Do we know what it eventually went for ??

Often times when i see a gun thats hard to place I use this site as a reference.
http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GL1.php

1900 Swiss Sunburst - produced 1900-1902 Production for Switzerland, Military and Commercial
comes the closest but still has knurling. I like Vlim's and Lugerdoc's replies and I love the gun

Vlim · 10-27-2020, 01:16 PM

E25+ refers to the steel type used.

rpbcps · 10-27-2020, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spangy

Hi CptCurl

Wow ... what a beautiful gun. Do we know what it eventually went for ??

Often times when i see a gun thats hard to place I use this site as a reference.
http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GL1.php

1900 Swiss Sunburst - produced 1900-1902 Production for Switzerland, Military and Commercial
comes the closest but still has knurling. I like Vlim's and Lugerdoc's replies and I love the gun

Spangy,
That is an excellent reference site, thank you for the link. I need to find something similar for Luger magazines now, as they can be confusing at times.

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2020, 04:05 PM

Be very careful with this website. Nice pictures but the descriptions are full of misinformation.

--Dwight

rpbcps · 10-27-2020, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

Be very careful with this website. Nice pictures but the descriptions are full of misinformation.

--Dwight

I just noticed that while scanning through the webpage

Mark1 · 10-27-2020, 07:01 PM

The original post photos show a neat modification to the 06/29 flat toggle knobs to appear more like the original sculpted 1900 style. Reminds me of similar machining that Sheepherder was experimenting with a while back.

Proofed · 10-29-2020, 01:35 PM

If the early link was armoror swapped for a 29 why would they machine it and install the lever

Mark1 · 10-30-2020, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proofed

If the early link was armoror swapped for a 29 why would they machine it and install the lever

Good point. Perhaps the work was done by a commercial gunsmith who was instructed to retain the functioning toggle lock? Or is the new rear link an aftermarket M1900 replacement?

Vlim · 10-30-2020, 11:03 AM

Because the specifications for the Model 1900 say so.

03-04-2019, 08:21 AM	#1
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	1900 Swiss Rear Toggle Link Replaced? This is a current listing on GB I was looking at. The seller is quite proud of this pistol, going by the description. Link: *Luger, 1900 Swiss, Military, Wide Trigger, Holster* I was alarmed to notice the rear toggle link with no knurling. There's no mention of it in the description. What could it be? Did the Swiss arsenal adapt an 06/29 rear toggle link as a replacement on a 1900? Does anybody have an idea what might cause the failure of a rear toggle link; and thus, its replacement? I would think this is a pretty robust part. Or if I'm all wet, please tell me so. I am no expert. Here's a copy and paste quote of the GB description: Beautiful, scarce and highly desirable M1900 Swiss Luger, military, with wide trigger, usually found in the 3000-4000 serial range with holster. SN: 4082. Cal: 30 Luger. Standard configuration with 4.75” tapered barrel with drift adjustable front sight and fixed rear sight. Flat top breech block, with toggle train having dished ears and anti-rebound arm. Chamber marked with Swiss cross in sunburst. Intertwined DWM on middle toggle link. Small Swiss proofs on left side of barrel, left receiver, and back of frame. Full serial number under barrel and forward frame. All small parts correctly serialed except takedown lever that is unmarked. Usual strawed small parts. Finely checkered walnut grips, both panels matching. Correct original magazine, unmarked with base having inserted disks. Complete with brown leather holster having ownership identification inside lid, now fitted with spare magazine pouch. Obverse surface with ownership and manufacturer marking, dated “1905”. Condition: At least 98% arsenal blue, with particularly crisp grip straps, the rear having a spot of holster wear at the base. All the strawed and fire blued parts have been freshened. Very bright, nearly mirror, bore. Perfect manual mechanics. Near excellent holster with supple leather. Forward belt loop beginning to separate. No suggestion of restitching. An extremely attractive example of one of the most desirable M1900 Swiss Military Lugers. A HISTORIC INVESTMENT! A-34 Attached Thumbnails

03-04-2019, 09:55 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I agree with your question. All the original M1900 rear toggle links that I've seen, do have some knurlling on the forward edge on both sides. The only explanation that comes to mind, is that on your M1900 #4082 that the Swiss may have removed the knurlling during a rework. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-05-2019, 02:15 PM	#5
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 84 Thanks: 1 Thanked 130 Times in 34 Posts	Cracks in the rear toogle were not uncommon among pistols in 1900 and 1900/06. As Vlim has already mentioned, the defective parts were often replaced by rear toogles of pistols 06/29. This was done by the W+F but also by local gunsmith. This pistol 1900/06 (W+F, SN 18251) was repaired by the W+F in the 1940's . The owner of the gun was the Director of the M+F (ammunition factory in Thun, Switzerland). Alexander Attached Thumbnails

03-05-2019, 02:22 PM	#6
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Why would it fail? Possibly: -imperfections(inclusions) in the steel, not visible from the outside - stress crack from forging, too small to see until it "grows" with use - abuse(heavy/hot loads or many thousands of rounds fired". Most cracks originate from sharp (square) inside corners, where firing stresses can be concentrated. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-05-2019, 06:57 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	We need to make this thread a "sticky" for it's excellent reference information. Thanks to the posters... __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-04-2019, 11:53 AM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Not uncommon to see fixed/repaired parts on Swiss lugers. If they needed fixing, they were fixed, that simple. If original parts were not available, more recent spares were used. Replaced rear toggles are not uncommon, and because they switched to non-checkered rear toggles in 1929, that is what they used for repairs after that time. Since these look different from the originals, it catches the eye. Other repairs are not that visible.

03-05-2019, 11:22 AM	#4
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	Both responses agree that the rear toggle link is a replacement, evidently crafted from a later part consistent with the post-1929 toggles used by the Swiss in Lugers they manufactured. That is exactly what I had thought. My secondary question asked, "Does anybody have an idea what might cause the failure of a rear toggle link; and thus, its replacement? I would think this is a pretty robust part." I'm still trying to get my head around what could cause a rear toggle link to fail. I am no engineer, nor a gunsmith. I've owned and shot a fair number of Lugers, but I've never seen one that gave indication of trouble in the toggle train. Can anybody add light to this? Thanks, Curl P.S. This is not my gun, and I have no intention of buying or attempting to buy it. I ask these questions only to learn. This is the only old model Luger I have ever seen or heard of that had smooth toggle ears.

03-05-2019, 05:18 PM	#7
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	Thanks for these explanations. I really appreciate your replies. Curl

03-05-2019, 09:29 PM	#9
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 41 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	Could it be from some commemorative 1900 Mauser 70' ? And the grip safety , not half sise at rear? __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

03-06-2019, 07:19 AM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Commemorative Mausers were checkered. Only a few pre production Mauser Parabellums had smooth toggle knobs. Normal production and commemoratives all had checkered knobs. Grip safety looks normal to me, but could be a 1906 style replacement. But one of the reasons Mauser was allowed to take over Swiss tools and drawings in the late 1960s was that W+F had the possibility to have Mauser make spares when needed. I found a few hints about it in the archives but no clear evidence that Mauser actually supplied parts to Bern. As late as 1969 W+F asked about model 1900 leaf springs... which Mauser could not deliver, as they didn't make them. Attached Thumbnails

10-26-2020, 11:59 PM	#11
zork New User Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 4 Posts	Curl, In the early 80s i saw a 1900 Swiss with that exact rear toggle. It was marked on the underside E25+ (like 4082). I assumed it was a replacement part made in 1925 specifically for old model Lugers. Never saw another till now. Unfortunately I didn't record the info.

10-27-2020, 12:49 PM	#12
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	Hi CptCurl Wow ... what a beautiful gun. Do we know what it eventually went for ?? Often times when i see a gun thats hard to place I use this site as a reference. http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GL1.php 1900 Swiss Sunburst - produced 1900-1902 Production for Switzerland, Military and Commercial comes the closest but still has knurling. I like Vlim's and Lugerdoc's replies and I love the gun

10-27-2020, 01:16 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	E25+ refers to the steel type used.

10-27-2020, 04:05 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,312 Times in 430 Posts	Be very careful with this website. Nice pictures but the descriptions are full of misinformation. --Dwight

10-27-2020, 07:01 PM	#17
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	The original post photos show a neat modification to the 06/29 flat toggle knobs to appear more like the original sculpted 1900 style. Reminds me of similar machining that Sheepherder was experimenting with a while back.

10-29-2020, 01:35 PM	#18
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	modified If the early link was armoror swapped for a 29 why would they machine it and install the lever

10-30-2020, 11:03 AM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Because the specifications for the Model 1900 say so.