The perfect Swiss Luger (for me that is)

ebx61u5 · 01-24-2018, 11:47 PM

I would like to have a (non-fat barrel) Swiss Luger with all matching numbers for my collection, and occasional shooting. My budget is about US$2000. What is the current favored source?
Swiss Luger do seem somewhat undervalued currently.
Buy from Simpson? RIA auction?

I'm not interested in the 1929 Model, and I have no other Luger of any type.

4 Scale · 01-25-2018, 01:27 PM

The standard advice to new collectors of Lugers is to buy books first. There are various types of Swiss built by both DWM and the Swiss themselves. Books will describe the types, help you decide etc. Search the forums for book advice. The forum FAQ is also an excellent first step.

For collectors who want to skip the book step, you'll pay more at a dealer like Simpson but will have both a real return option and the pistol will be accurately described. I view the dealer premium as a type of insurance, the world of Lugers for sale is full of misrepresented and overpriced pistols at any price point.

In terms of auctions, I use Proxibid which includes RIA. I also use Gunbroker. However IMO it is unwise for new collectors to use auctions without studying the forums and quality books first.

mrerick · 01-25-2018, 03:17 PM

Hello Michael, and welcome to the forum.

I collect and very much respect the attention that the Swiss apply to their Luger manufacture.

The valuation of Swiss Lugers reflects the demand and supply. There has been a fairly steady supply over the years, and the demand has been less than for German military pistols. It may relate to them being in .30 Luger caliber.

Most have been arsenal refurbished at some point, and this is not considered so much of a defect or devaluation factor. Many were specifically redone when the officer that bought their service pistol retired.

I'm not sure what a "fat barrel" Swiss Luger is. They all have more tapered barrels partially due to their caliber. Bobba published a well illustrated book on Swiss Lugers a few years ago, but I believe it's out of print now. It is in Italian and English and needs some update and correction at this point.

Most Swiss Lugers entered the USA after 1968, and so will have import marks. It's quite more unusual to find one without a mark. Many came in while they could still be marked under grips and in less visible places.

The M1929 is a particularly high precision pistol, made in Bern but made from parts sourced form SIG. The earlier models appear similar to the German military pistols with longer tapered barrels.

These were made for a nation of target shooters, and their precision reflects this.

DonVoigt · 01-25-2018, 04:17 PM

Mark,
what makes the 1929 a higher precision luger than the previous models?

mrerick · 01-25-2018, 04:34 PM

The two M1929 Swiss Lugers (vintage 1935 and 1938) I have are actually closer fit and cycle smoother than the M1900, M1900/06 DWM and M1906 W+F that I have. There is something about the metal work milling and fit that feels higher precision. The same fit and finish grade of work is present in my Sig P210-2, a military Swiss SIG from 1958.

The other Swiss Lugers are excellent too, but the M1929 models I are just a bit better.

Sergio Natali · 01-26-2018, 05:09 AM

I'm getting more and more selective on anything, as far as Swiss Lugers are concerned personally I would only consider real vintage ones.

mrerick · 01-26-2018, 10:50 AM

Sergio, that early M1900 is about as "vintage" as it gets. Beautiful Luger...

ebx61u5 · 01-26-2018, 09:57 PM

Thank you all so much for your good advice.

This is the pistol I'm currently considering:

https://www.simpsonltd.com/products/z23722

This gun has the inspector marks of both Col. Muhlemann and Herr Vogeslang. Is that unusual?

Mike

DonVoigt · 01-26-2018, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I'm getting more and more selective on anything, as far as Swiss Lugers are concerned personally I would only consider real vintage ones.

Now that is a nice "Swiss" luger; I'll bet it is fit as well as any later Swiss made luger for sure.

DonVoigt · 01-26-2018, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebx61u5

Thank you all so much for your good advice.

This is the pistol I'm currently considering:

https://www.simpsonltd.com/products/z23722

This gun has the inspector marks of both Col. Muhlemann and Herr Vogeslang. Is that unusual?

Mike

Nice one for sure, not a bad price.

I like the "sunburst" myself, but the shield is nice too.

mrerick · 01-27-2018, 03:35 PM

The Swiss Cross in Shield replaced the Cross in Starburst because of a change in Swiss law adopting the new hallmark symbol for the country.

The Swiss Luger you're considering dates to 1913. This was the year that Col. Muhlemann replaced Herr Vogeslang. Is that unusual? Yes... It's a group of perhaps 800 or so Swiss Lugers that have inspections done under the leadership of both men.

Michael Zeleny · 02-14-2018, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Most Swiss Lugers entered the USA after 1968, and so will have import marks. It's quite more unusual to find one without a mark. Many came in while they could still be marked under grips and in less visible places.

Private imports never required import marks.

https://larvatus.livejournal.com/633346.html

Stucki · 02-15-2018, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

The Swiss Cross in Shield replaced the Cross in Starburst because of a change in Swiss law adopting the new hallmark symbol for the country.

Why this change took place, is not known. However it is ptretty sure, that it has nothing to do with a change of law.

It could be, that the Swiss authorities were not happy with the practice of DWM, to sold commercial pistols with the „Cross in Starburst“ and therfore changed to the „Cross in Shield“. But that is only a guess. I have never found hard evidence for it.

You have to know, that in these days official Switzerland used a number of different coats of arms with the Swiss Cross. There were obviously no strict rules.

Alexander

spacecoast · 09-23-2020, 11:01 AM

This is an old thread, but I wanted to note that the Swiss Cross in Shield at Simpson is still available, and has been there for at least six years, so they might be willing to deal for an interested buyer.

https://simpsonltd.com/dwm-1906-swis...s-in-shield-3/

Marc is exactly correct above on the 800-gun range for the guns marked with both the stamps of Col. Muhlemann and Herr Vogelsong. I own one of these (#13937) discussed in an interesting thread on the other forum. I won't link it here, but a "Cross in Shield" search brings it pretty close to the top. Unfortunately the pictures don't appear to be working any more. It is indeed a beautiful gun and I am fortunate that I was in the right place at the right time to buy it from Bob Van Gelder.

01-25-2018, 01:27 PM	#2
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	The standard advice to new collectors of Lugers is to buy books first. There are various types of Swiss built by both DWM and the Swiss themselves. Books will describe the types, help you decide etc. Search the forums for book advice. The forum FAQ is also an excellent first step. For collectors who want to skip the book step, you'll pay more at a dealer like Simpson but will have both a real return option and the pistol will be accurately described. I view the dealer premium as a type of insurance, the world of Lugers for sale is full of misrepresented and overpriced pistols at any price point. In terms of auctions, I use Proxibid which includes RIA. I also use Gunbroker. However IMO it is unwise for new collectors to use auctions without studying the forums and quality books first. Last edited by 4 Scale; 12-02-2021 at 02:48 PM.

01-25-2018, 03:17 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hello Michael, and welcome to the forum. I collect and very much respect the attention that the Swiss apply to their Luger manufacture. The valuation of Swiss Lugers reflects the demand and supply. There has been a fairly steady supply over the years, and the demand has been less than for German military pistols. It may relate to them being in .30 Luger caliber. Most have been arsenal refurbished at some point, and this is not considered so much of a defect or devaluation factor. Many were specifically redone when the officer that bought their service pistol retired. I'm not sure what a "fat barrel" Swiss Luger is. They all have more tapered barrels partially due to their caliber. Bobba published a well illustrated book on Swiss Lugers a few years ago, but I believe it's out of print now. It is in Italian and English and needs some update and correction at this point. Most Swiss Lugers entered the USA after 1968, and so will have import marks. It's quite more unusual to find one without a mark. Many came in while they could still be marked under grips and in less visible places. The M1929 is a particularly high precision pistol, made in Bern but made from parts sourced form SIG. The earlier models appear similar to the German military pistols with longer tapered barrels. These were made for a nation of target shooters, and their precision reflects this. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-25-2018, 04:17 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Mark, what makes the 1929 a higher precision luger than the previous models? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-25-2018, 04:34 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The two M1929 Swiss Lugers (vintage 1935 and 1938) I have are actually closer fit and cycle smoother than the M1900, M1900/06 DWM and M1906 W+F that I have. There is something about the metal work milling and fit that feels higher precision. The same fit and finish grade of work is present in my Sig P210-2, a military Swiss SIG from 1958. The other Swiss Lugers are excellent too, but the M1929 models I are just a bit better. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-26-2018, 05:09 AM	#6
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I'm getting more and more selective on anything, as far as Swiss Lugers are concerned personally I would only consider real vintage ones. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

01-24-2018, 11:47 PM	#1
ebx61u5 New User Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The perfect Swiss Luger (for me that is) I would like to have a (non-fat barrel) Swiss Luger with all matching numbers for my collection, and occasional shooting. My budget is about US$2000. What is the current favored source? Swiss Luger do seem somewhat undervalued currently. Buy from Simpson? RIA auction? I'm not interested in the 1929 Model, and I have no other Luger of any type.

01-26-2018, 10:50 AM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Sergio, that early M1900 is about as "vintage" as it gets. Beautiful Luger... __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-26-2018, 09:57 PM	#8
ebx61u5 New User Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all so much for your good advice. This is the pistol I'm currently considering: https://www.simpsonltd.com/products/z23722 This gun has the inspector marks of both Col. Muhlemann and Herr Vogeslang. Is that unusual? Mike

01-27-2018, 03:35 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The Swiss Cross in Shield replaced the Cross in Starburst because of a change in Swiss law adopting the new hallmark symbol for the country. The Swiss Luger you're considering dates to 1913. This was the year that Col. Muhlemann replaced Herr Vogeslang. Is that unusual? Yes... It's a group of perhaps 800 or so Swiss Lugers that have inspections done under the leadership of both men. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-23-2020, 11:01 AM	#14
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	This is an old thread, but I wanted to note that the Swiss Cross in Shield at Simpson is still available, and has been there for at least six years, so they might be willing to deal for an interested buyer. https://simpsonltd.com/dwm-1906-swis...s-in-shield-3/ Marc is exactly correct above on the 800-gun range for the guns marked with both the stamps of Col. Muhlemann and Herr Vogelsong. I own one of these (#13937) discussed in an interesting thread on the other forum. I won't link it here, but a "Cross in Shield" search brings it pretty close to the top. Unfortunately the pictures don't appear to be working any more. It is indeed a beautiful gun and I am fortunate that I was in the right place at the right time to buy it from Bob Van Gelder. __________________ My avatars are the Bulgarian word for "Fire", as seen on my 1900, 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Contract DWM Lugers. Looking for a DWM Commercial side plate #95