Luger Strength

PaulH · 02-27-2003, 11:34 AM

Hello everyone, I'm new here (this is my first post) but I've been into the P-08 for a while, and I have 3, a Mauser S/42, and Erfurt Artillery, and a DWM 1920 Commercial.
Here's my question: How strong are the actions?
I was always under the impression that the toggle action was one of the strongest ever made, and could handle some pretty powerful ammo. Datig even states in his book that he never heard of one destroyed by firing hot ammo. Yet, recently, I've been hearing the action is weak,prone to jambing, etc
Now, I don't fire hot stuff through my pieces, but what's the story?

Thanks,
Paul

John Sabato · 02-27-2003, 12:07 PM

Let me preface this response with "THIS IS MY OPINION" and you are all welcome to post your own feelings...

The Luger IS a strong action compared to its competing contemporary designs, but the reality is that these original weapons are mostly between 50 and 100 years old and they were not designed to handle the pressures of ammunition in the +P category.

Steel can become brittle and work hardened with age and I for one would not subject ANY gun that I own to a steady diet of the hot stuff. Use of "standard" loads should preserve your Luger for generations to come and it will suffer only "normal" wear and tear. Just like my 55 year old body... If I abuse it, I can expect that it will be hurt. Appreciate your Lugers for what they are... a piece of history, and while they can be repaired or have parts replaced... they will NEVER be the same or original after being abused... so I don't.

As far as jamming... The Luger is finicky when it comes to magazines... but once you have a magazine that functions well with a particular load, you can expect that your Luger will function reliably when properly lubricated and used with appropriate ammunition. If this were not so, they never would have been adopted for military service by so many nations.

Just my $0.02

Thor · 02-27-2003, 12:28 PM

The Luger will last a long time as long as the ammo and the main spring are balanced. You can go the light route and if you have a light spring the action will not batter the frame/receiver too much, BUT you might have feeding problems or problems with it closing soidly and completely. If you got the hotter ammo route, a stouter mainspring is better, it will protect the action and metal more and close better. The problem is two fold IMO, most guns have shot a lot of ammo already and some have worn springs. You replace the spring and now the gun wont function with a standard loading. I favor the best idea is to find a loading you like and can afford, then adjust a new mainspring to JUST lock the action back everytime. A 36# new Wolff spring just about seems right to me for current loadings. If you are shooting the hotter stuff I would buy a 40# spring and see if it will still lock the toggle back, if it cant push the breech back, clip 1/2 coil and try again, until you reach a balance. But now if you go to standard ammo it will not work right. Find a load with a matching main spring and STICK WITH IT!.

Big Norm · 02-27-2003, 12:35 PM

PaulH,
John has pretty good advise. I just would like to add that the ammo will sometimes screw up a luger. Once I went to an indoor range and had to use their ammo. It was under powered and the bullet fouled up the barrel. My Lugers continuously jammed and I spent more time clearing my guns than shooting.
I have heard that there are instances of the extractors breaking but it has never happened to me personally. After having a number of Lugers, I finally got one that appears to need a new main spring in the handle. All in all, given the age of these guns, I would say that that is a pretty good track record.
Basically, there are three things to be careful of. (1) dirt
(2) weak magazine (never use an original)
(3) bad ammunition
Watch these three things an you are pretty well assured of some happy shooting. I only mentioned not using the original magazine because of its collectiblity. An original will probably work but why screw up an original collectible piece.
Big Norm

unspellable · 02-27-2003, 01:08 PM

I will add that if you are going to start trimming springs, do it with a Wolff, not the original. Trimming the original spring will reduce the preload too much. Plus, you are defacing the original. Lay it to one side, keep it with the gun and don't lose it!

A second point is that if you pick up a Luger and pull the recoil spring out of it, God knows what you'll get. Many have had the spring replaced or tinkered with.

Third point is that in the Parabellum magazine, the point of the bullet is supposed to ride up the front of the magazine. I've had bullets with big hollowpoints with sharp edges hang up in the magazine.

PaulH · 02-27-2003, 01:51 PM

Thanks for the replys, but I guess I wasn't clear enough in my question. As with any antique, I'm careful about what I shoot, and Luger's are no exception, I'm not about to compromise my $1,500 collectable with some hot carbine ammo.
What I was getting at in my original query was how the Luger strength was overall. Say compared to the other pistols of the time. Sure, it was stronger than a Broomhandle, but how would it compare to a Colt 1911, or a Steyr Hahn? Was the toggle a strong design, or did it have any major weakness? I always thought it was pretty strong, but lately I've heard it wasn't so hot.
That's what I want to know.

John Sabato · 02-27-2003, 02:25 PM

I consider the toggle joint used on the Luger to be far stronger than the 1911 Colt design. You can see this just by looking at the thickness of the receiver and the locking parts of both guns.

There is at least twice as much steel in the chamber area of a Luger barrel than there is in the same area on a 1911 design. and the massiveness of the toggle parts and their totally locked firing position is much stonger than the pivoting barrel and locking recesses in the barrel/slide of the 1911.

IMHO, the Luger is much stronger than it's contemporary designs.

Here is two more cents

unspellable · 02-27-2003, 02:33 PM

In terms of pressure, the toggle action is inherently a vary strong design. Witness the extremely hot loads for the original DWM Parabellum carbine. These ran on the order of 40,000 cup. This sort of pressure is absolutely guaranteed to blow a 1911 to smithereens.

Actually the weak point in most self loaders is in the area of the ramp where the case head does not get very good support. Over pressuring the Parabellum will typically blow out the case head on the underside and take off the lower front edge of the breech block

You are more likely to break the Parabellum with too much impulse than with too much pressure. Impulse is the meaure of the cartridge's ability to shove the recoil operated action back, and relates to bullet weight and velocity rather than pressure. This type of abuse typically results in breaking off one of the toggle knobs or the rear extension of the rear toggle link. Of course mismatched parts that are ill fitting reduce the enherent design strength. Any slop allows parts to take a run and build up speed before they hit something.

The Mauser broomhandle is actually an incredibly strong design in terms of pressure. There are cases of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge being fired in the 7.62 mm broomhandle without blowing it apart. This would obviously involve some incredible pressure as the 9 mm bullet gets swaged down to 7.62 mm. In today's world we find many broomhandles with rounded off or battered locking lugs which allows them to unlock too easily. There are cases of bolt fractures, probably due to the effects of age and quality control issues in the original steel. This is why the old guns are a bit variable and sometimes do not prove to be quite as strong as the design would indicate.

We get stonger and more consistent steel these days even if we don't get the hand finishing any more.

02-27-2003, 11:34 AM	#1
PaulH New User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: PA Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger Strength Hello everyone, I'm new here (this is my first post) but I've been into the P-08 for a while, and I have 3, a Mauser S/42, and Erfurt Artillery, and a DWM 1920 Commercial. Here's my question: How strong are the actions? I was always under the impression that the toggle action was one of the strongest ever made, and could handle some pretty powerful ammo. Datig even states in his book that he never heard of one destroyed by firing hot ammo. Yet, recently, I've been hearing the action is weak,prone to jambing, etc Now, I don't fire hot stuff through my pieces, but what's the story? Thanks, Paul

02-27-2003, 12:07 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Let me preface this response with "THIS IS MY OPINION" and you are all welcome to post your own feelings... The Luger IS a strong action compared to its competing contemporary designs, but the reality is that these original weapons are mostly between 50 and 100 years old and they were not designed to handle the pressures of ammunition in the +P category. Steel can become brittle and work hardened with age and I for one would not subject ANY gun that I own to a steady diet of the hot stuff. Use of "standard" loads should preserve your Luger for generations to come and it will suffer only "normal" wear and tear. Just like my 55 year old body... If I abuse it, I can expect that it will be hurt. Appreciate your Lugers for what they are... a piece of history, and while they can be repaired or have parts replaced... they will NEVER be the same or original after being abused... so I don't. As far as jamming... The Luger is finicky when it comes to magazines... but once you have a magazine that functions well with a particular load, you can expect that your Luger will function reliably when properly lubricated and used with appropriate ammunition. If this were not so, they never would have been adopted for military service by so many nations. Just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-27-2003, 12:28 PM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	The Luger will last a long time as long as the ammo and the main spring are balanced. You can go the light route and if you have a light spring the action will not batter the frame/receiver too much, BUT you might have feeding problems or problems with it closing soidly and completely. If you got the hotter ammo route, a stouter mainspring is better, it will protect the action and metal more and close better. The problem is two fold IMO, most guns have shot a lot of ammo already and some have worn springs. You replace the spring and now the gun wont function with a standard loading. I favor the best idea is to find a loading you like and can afford, then adjust a new mainspring to JUST lock the action back everytime. A 36# new Wolff spring just about seems right to me for current loadings. If you are shooting the hotter stuff I would buy a 40# spring and see if it will still lock the toggle back, if it cant push the breech back, clip 1/2 coil and try again, until you reach a balance. But now if you go to standard ammo it will not work right. Find a load with a matching main spring and STICK WITH IT!. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-27-2003, 02:25 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I consider the toggle joint used on the Luger to be far stronger than the 1911 Colt design. You can see this just by looking at the thickness of the receiver and the locking parts of both guns. There is at least twice as much steel in the chamber area of a Luger barrel than there is in the same area on a 1911 design. and the massiveness of the toggle parts and their totally locked firing position is much stonger than the pivoting barrel and locking recesses in the barrel/slide of the 1911. IMHO, the Luger is much stronger than it's contemporary designs. Here is two more cents __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-27-2003, 12:35 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	PaulH, John has pretty good advise. I just would like to add that the ammo will sometimes screw up a luger. Once I went to an indoor range and had to use their ammo. It was under powered and the bullet fouled up the barrel. My Lugers continuously jammed and I spent more time clearing my guns than shooting. I have heard that there are instances of the extractors breaking but it has never happened to me personally. After having a number of Lugers, I finally got one that appears to need a new main spring in the handle. All in all, given the age of these guns, I would say that that is a pretty good track record. Basically, there are three things to be careful of. (1) dirt (2) weak magazine (never use an original) (3) bad ammunition Watch these three things an you are pretty well assured of some happy shooting. I only mentioned not using the original magazine because of its collectiblity. An original will probably work but why screw up an original collectible piece. Big Norm

02-27-2003, 01:08 PM	#5
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I will add that if you are going to start trimming springs, do it with a Wolff, not the original. Trimming the original spring will reduce the preload too much. Plus, you are defacing the original. Lay it to one side, keep it with the gun and don't lose it! A second point is that if you pick up a Luger and pull the recoil spring out of it, God knows what you'll get. Many have had the spring replaced or tinkered with. Third point is that in the Parabellum magazine, the point of the bullet is supposed to ride up the front of the magazine. I've had bullets with big hollowpoints with sharp edges hang up in the magazine.

02-27-2003, 01:51 PM	#6
PaulH New User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: PA Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the replys, but I guess I wasn't clear enough in my question. As with any antique, I'm careful about what I shoot, and Luger's are no exception, I'm not about to compromise my $1,500 collectable with some hot carbine ammo. What I was getting at in my original query was how the Luger strength was overall. Say compared to the other pistols of the time. Sure, it was stronger than a Broomhandle, but how would it compare to a Colt 1911, or a Steyr Hahn? Was the toggle a strong design, or did it have any major weakness? I always thought it was pretty strong, but lately I've heard it wasn't so hot. That's what I want to know.

02-27-2003, 02:33 PM	#8
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	In terms of pressure, the toggle action is inherently a vary strong design. Witness the extremely hot loads for the original DWM Parabellum carbine. These ran on the order of 40,000 cup. This sort of pressure is absolutely guaranteed to blow a 1911 to smithereens. Actually the weak point in most self loaders is in the area of the ramp where the case head does not get very good support. Over pressuring the Parabellum will typically blow out the case head on the underside and take off the lower front edge of the breech block You are more likely to break the Parabellum with too much impulse than with too much pressure. Impulse is the meaure of the cartridge's ability to shove the recoil operated action back, and relates to bullet weight and velocity rather than pressure. This type of abuse typically results in breaking off one of the toggle knobs or the rear extension of the rear toggle link. Of course mismatched parts that are ill fitting reduce the enherent design strength. Any slop allows parts to take a run and build up speed before they hit something. The Mauser broomhandle is actually an incredibly strong design in terms of pressure. There are cases of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge being fired in the 7.62 mm broomhandle without blowing it apart. This would obviously involve some incredible pressure as the 9 mm bullet gets swaged down to 7.62 mm. In today's world we find many broomhandles with rounded off or battered locking lugs which allows them to unlock too easily. There are cases of bolt fractures, probably due to the effects of age and quality control issues in the original steel. This is why the old guns are a bit variable and sometimes do not prove to be quite as strong as the design would indicate. We get stonger and more consistent steel these days even if we don't get the hand finishing any more.