odd ball Luger ID help needed

hipwr223 · 10-31-2002, 10:36 PM

Hi all,

Hope some of you can shed some light on a Luger I picked up several years ago. Allow me to give some background on the group that this came from. I bought an estate of guns from a guy that previously lived in NJ. His children sold me the grouping. He was an FFL in the 1960's and kept good records. Along with this pistol there were several other RARE guns from big names. I had a 41 Mauser Banner commercial in 99% he got it from Bruffet. There were a couple other Lugers that came from Shattuck, there was a Walther HP LW in 98% that was ultra scarce. A couple rare panagraphed pps and ppks. So the guy had first rate, high end German pistols. Then there was this Luger.....

The gun is in the white, and has three unmarked bbls. No proofs, no serials, no front sights. The frame, takedown lever, Navy bolt and toggle, spare toggle, and trigger are all numbered 1. The only blued item is the Navy toggle group. It has a lazy crown N and no other marks on the frame. The top frame looks like it may have had a date or something removed. The Navy Toggle group is DWM marked. The gun puzzles me as I feel it is someones attempt to make a strange gun. However, it came out of a collection of real high end stuff. Any thoughts???? Tool room gun, or forgery???

Doubs · 10-31-2002, 11:11 PM

The Navy rear sight is Imperial or Weimar in origin I would think and the lazy C/N is a commercial proof. That raises the possibility of a pre or post-WW1 commercial Navy model Luger.

HOWEVER, and this is the fly in the ointment, if you have a good look at Imperial and Weimar era pistols, the style of "1" used is exactly as I've typed it... both in serial numbers and dates. The "1" without the bottom base or cross piece doesn't appear until Mauser production in the 1930's.

You may have the pieces of an "extremely rare" variation that was not completed. IMO, it is a fake in the making. That's only my opinion and others may have a different take on the matter.

Stu · 11-01-2002, 07:09 AM

Is it my imagination or is the '1' on the breechblock struck over an exisitng inspection or proof mark ?

Lugerdoc · 11-01-2002, 08:20 AM

I concur that this assembledge of parts have been renumbered with a modern die. Perhaps the former owner was building up a "matching" shooter, to perserve his more collectable lugers. Tom

hipwr223 · 11-01-2002, 08:35 AM

Tom,

I have had the same feelings about this one. Some of the die stikes look way too suspicious. The one breech block looks funny cause it was a deep stike. The metal has peened over and cast a shadow in the pic. It still looks suspect to me though. But I can see no evidence of numbers under any of the stikes. My gut tells me its a a phony all the way. I would love to believe it was a tool room gun or fixture for testing bbl lengths and sight combos [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am not emotionally attached to this gun, so give me your honest opinions.

john

John Sabato · 11-01-2002, 10:59 AM

I concur with the others... this seems to have been carefully renumbered.

This photo of the front of the frame enlarged 2X and also shown in a negative image appears to show the 'ghosts' of previous numbers. The photos on the right of the number stamps on the toggle parts are obviously stamped over previous numbers that were not ground down far enough to remove them.

I think the takedown lever has been ground down and then renumbered and the trigger may have been unnumbered before being struck with the digit one (in the wrong font for the period).

[quote] He was an FFL in the 1960's and kept good records. <hr></blockquote>

If this is so, then what did his records show about the origin of this pistol?

These parts will assemble into quite a shooter. If it were legally mine, I would search out the correct 6 inch barrel ( the 6 incher that you show may be a standard barrel and the front sight boss may not be high enough to allow for placement of shots at point of aim with a standard front sight) and then have this assembled and rust blued by Thor. Keep your origin documentation to keep you legal. Have the pistol marked in an obvious place as a rebuild to prevent it from being sold someday as an original #1 Navy... AND THEN ENJOY SHOOTING IT!

Edward Tinker · 11-01-2002, 11:45 AM

Very interesting John... The not knowing is also what makes life in the Luger world interesting!

Sounds like you have some great guns, unless like me, you have sold some of them off!
(Okay, I'm like RK, mine are and have been mostly shooters [img]wink.gif[/img] )

Navy · 11-01-2002, 01:57 PM

All,

My view tends to be less charitable as I have a set of photographs of an '04 Navy during its being manufactured from other parts and pieces and I know that the gun was sold as original.

It is today held by its owner to be original as he purchased it from the estate of the first victim of the fraud.

The discovery of these parst, nicely but incorrectly renumbered is like finding pornographic pictures of your sweet, dear old dead Auntie as you clean out her house prior to an estate sale: may not like what you see but there can be little doubt as to what was happening.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Tom A.

Edward Tinker · 11-01-2002, 02:07 PM

True and we would do the collecting fraternity a favor by
obviously re-bluing, marking or destroying them. Harder to do in real life?

This is where a registry of known fakes would be nice.

I bet among the 659 people signed up on lugerforum.com there are
tens of thousands of known serial numbers and markings, to include known fakes.

If people send me their lists, hard copy or copies of them, e-mail or typed,
I will scan them in and collect known serial numbers.
I know this is a huge undertaking,
but frankly don't see most collectors "willing" to give up
their serial number lists.

But if people send them to me off line,
I will compile a collection of lists.

I also know this is a long term investment of time, and that is okay.

I also feel that a list should be shared, privately if need be
and not considered for public distribution.

At the beginning of the list, I think I should
list those that contributed and not list guns by owners.

Thor · 11-01-2002, 02:20 PM

I keep such a list of guns I have reworked. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

hipwr223 · 11-01-2002, 07:31 PM

Thanks for the replies guys! That more or less confirmed my gut instinct.

I am a full time retailer, and sadly, that whole collection had to go in order to feed the family. I never felt right about this gun and never offered it for sale.

I would enjoy this as a shooter and I may restore it and mark it in such a way as to eliminate any chance of it being passed as anything other than a nice shooter.

john
Seneca Arms Co

11-01-2002, 08:20 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I concur that this assembledge of parts have been renumbered with a modern die. Perhaps the former owner was building up a "matching" shooter, to perserve his more collectable lugers. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-01-2002, 10:59 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I concur with the others... this seems to have been carefully renumbered. This photo of the front of the frame enlarged 2X and also shown in a negative image appears to show the 'ghosts' of previous numbers. The photos on the right of the number stamps on the toggle parts are obviously stamped over previous numbers that were not ground down far enough to remove them. I think the takedown lever has been ground down and then renumbered and the trigger may have been unnumbered before being struck with the digit one (in the wrong font for the period). [quote] He was an FFL in the 1960's and kept good records. <hr></blockquote> If this is so, then what did his records show about the origin of this pistol? These parts will assemble into quite a shooter. If it were legally mine, I would search out the correct 6 inch barrel ( the 6 incher that you show may be a standard barrel and the front sight boss may not be high enough to allow for placement of shots at point of aim with a standard front sight) and then have this assembled and rust blued by Thor. Keep your origin documentation to keep you legal. Have the pistol marked in an obvious place as a rebuild to prevent it from being sold someday as an original #1 Navy... AND THEN ENJOY SHOOTING IT! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-01-2002, 11:45 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Very interesting John... The not knowing is also what makes life in the Luger world interesting! Sounds like you have some great guns, unless like me, you have sold some of them off! (Okay, I'm like RK, mine are and have been mostly shooters [img]wink.gif[/img] ) __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-01-2002, 02:07 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	True and we would do the collecting fraternity a favor by obviously re-bluing, marking or destroying them. Harder to do in real life? This is where a registry of known fakes would be nice. I bet among the 659 people signed up on lugerforum.com there are tens of thousands of known serial numbers and markings, to include known fakes. If people send me their lists, hard copy or copies of them, e-mail or typed, I will scan them in and collect known serial numbers. I know this is a huge undertaking, but frankly don't see most collectors "willing" to give up their serial number lists. But if people send them to me off line, I will compile a collection of lists. I also know this is a long term investment of time, and that is okay. I also feel that a list should be shared, privately if need be and not considered for public distribution. At the beginning of the list, I think I should list those that contributed and not list guns by owners. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-01-2002, 02:20 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I keep such a list of guns I have reworked. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-31-2002, 10:36 PM	#1
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	odd ball Luger ID help needed Hi all, Hope some of you can shed some light on a Luger I picked up several years ago. Allow me to give some background on the group that this came from. I bought an estate of guns from a guy that previously lived in NJ. His children sold me the grouping. He was an FFL in the 1960's and kept good records. Along with this pistol there were several other RARE guns from big names. I had a 41 Mauser Banner commercial in 99% he got it from Bruffet. There were a couple other Lugers that came from Shattuck, there was a Walther HP LW in 98% that was ultra scarce. A couple rare panagraphed pps and ppks. So the guy had first rate, high end German pistols. Then there was this Luger..... The gun is in the white, and has three unmarked bbls. No proofs, no serials, no front sights. The frame, takedown lever, Navy bolt and toggle, spare toggle, and trigger are all numbered 1. The only blued item is the Navy toggle group. It has a lazy crown N and no other marks on the frame. The top frame looks like it may have had a date or something removed. The Navy Toggle group is DWM marked. The gun puzzles me as I feel it is someones attempt to make a strange gun. However, it came out of a collection of real high end stuff. Any thoughts???? Tool room gun, or forgery???

10-31-2002, 11:11 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,618 Times in 527 Posts	The Navy rear sight is Imperial or Weimar in origin I would think and the lazy C/N is a commercial proof. That raises the possibility of a pre or post-WW1 commercial Navy model Luger. HOWEVER, and this is the fly in the ointment, if you have a good look at Imperial and Weimar era pistols, the style of "1" used is exactly as I've typed it... both in serial numbers and dates. The "1" without the bottom base or cross piece doesn't appear until Mauser production in the 1930's. You may have the pieces of an "extremely rare" variation that was not completed. IMO, it is a fake in the making. That's only my opinion and others may have a different take on the matter.

11-01-2002, 07:09 AM	#3
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Is it my imagination or is the '1' on the breechblock struck over an exisitng inspection or proof mark ?

11-01-2002, 08:35 AM	#5
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, I have had the same feelings about this one. Some of the die stikes look way too suspicious. The one breech block looks funny cause it was a deep stike. The metal has peened over and cast a shadow in the pic. It still looks suspect to me though. But I can see no evidence of numbers under any of the stikes. My gut tells me its a a phony all the way. I would love to believe it was a tool room gun or fixture for testing bbl lengths and sight combos [img]smile.gif[/img] I am not emotionally attached to this gun, so give me your honest opinions. john

11-01-2002, 01:57 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, My view tends to be less charitable as I have a set of photographs of an '04 Navy during its being manufactured from other parts and pieces and I know that the gun was sold as original. It is today held by its owner to be original as he purchased it from the estate of the first victim of the fraud. The discovery of these parst, nicely but incorrectly renumbered is like finding pornographic pictures of your sweet, dear old dead Auntie as you clean out her house prior to an estate sale: may not like what you see but there can be little doubt as to what was happening. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... Tom A.

11-01-2002, 07:31 PM	#11
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the replies guys! That more or less confirmed my gut instinct. I am a full time retailer, and sadly, that whole collection had to go in order to feed the family. I never felt right about this gun and never offered it for sale. I would enjoy this as a shooter and I may restore it and mark it in such a way as to eliminate any chance of it being passed as anything other than a nice shooter. john Seneca Arms Co