Valuation DWM Luger

~bs · 11-22-2017, 11:26 PM

Hello,

So I've been buying some guns on estate and I'd like to get an idea of what this gun is worth. The family wanted 1 grand on the gun and wouldn't budge. I rushed bought the gun, thinking I probably overpaid, but it did have a nice collector box, which I imagine was from the time it was imported into the US (given the "germany" mark). And the 50 round ammunition included with it is sealed (perhaps sealed later, not sure if they had plastics back then). Anyways, any more info on the gun and hopefully value at least equal to what I paid is appreciated!

Does the lower serial number (826) have any significance? Numbers on various parts of the gun all matching, as far as I can tell.

There appears to be rust starting on the side of the pistol, any recommended treatments or ways to mitigate this? The picture of the left side of the gun shows the rust spot. On the cover plate.

Why does certain parts of the gun appear to have a goldish hue? Is that tarnish? The right side of the gun mag ejector spot and part of the trigger. a lot lighter in color than in the picture. I posted this up on a different forum earlier trying to get a valuation, and someone mentioned it's something called straw due to the way the metal part was hardened.

Front and back of the grip shows wear, I think the picture adequately depicts it. The guy I bought the gun was a shooter, and he shot all his guns, even the collectible ones. I think the gun may have started off brand new or close to it in the collector box, but the wear on the grip and other areas are from the gun being used.

Is there any easy way to tell for certainty what caliber the gun is? It's not marked on the weapon itself as far as I can tell.

DavidJayUden · 11-23-2017, 12:50 AM

It appears to be run-of-the-mill commercial "alphabet" Luger in .30 cal. Regarding the low serial number possibly increasing the value of the gun, no not really, but I'd like to see a good photo of the numbers on the front of the frame and particularly the marking just beneath.
I know nothing of the box, but it does present well and should be worth $1k with the 3 magazines, ammo, etc.
dju

mrerick · 11-23-2017, 10:59 AM

We discuss many things including how to determine caliber in the FAQ document published free on this website. Follow the FAQ link at the top of the page.

It looks like a nice original DWM Alphabet Commerical Luger. The case is aftermarket, made by Pacific Canvas in the USA.

The pistol was made for commercial export from Germany. The gun's serial number is on the front of the frame and includes the suffix letter. If the suffix letter under the numeric digits has been damaged or obscured that would be a potential ATF issue, and drop value.

The serial number digits do not look like DWM dies, and it's very possible that the gun and the barrel has been renumbered. That would reduce the pistol to "Shooter" class, not collector class, and drop the value of the gun and one magazine to $700. If the numbers were changed or obscured, there could be ATF issues.

The grip wear does drop the value somewhat. I would reduce David's value estimate by at least $100. Case contributes $75 to value; Each magazine $90 to value

The golden color on parts is called "straw" and is normal. It's a form of fire / heat bluing.

Lugerdoc · 11-23-2017, 12:23 PM

bs, I feel that you got your money's worth for all the items shown in your photos. As previously requested, a clear photo of the suffix letter below the serial on your frame may be of interest. If the letter suffix has been over-stamped with a crown, this may indicate what was called a "Riff contract" which has never been proven to exist. Since no one knows for sure what this indicates, it at least does make it different from it's original normal commerical production. I suspect that this marking was modified by recipient country (?), to indicate their ownership, similar to the Finish SA marking to indicate army possession. This may be an area worthy of some research. TH

DavidJayUden · 11-23-2017, 12:40 PM

Please get us those close-up photos of markings!
dju

DonVoigt · 11-23-2017, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Please get us those close-up photos of markings!
dju

And in "focus".

Dwight Gruber · 11-23-2017, 06:17 PM

The frame suffix appears to be u (thus made in 1929) partially overstamped by a crown. Crown overstamping of the letter suffix is not common, there are several examples reported. the reason is unknown. It is not likely to be part of the Rif contract; it is suspected that the Rif guns are the s, t, and u suffix commercial police pistols without the DWM hallmark.

The grips on your pistol are not original.

For the pistol with the complete set of case and accessories, your cost was reasonable.

--Dwight

~bs · 11-26-2017, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

We discuss many things including how to determine caliber in the FAQ document published free on this website. Follow the FAQ link at the top of the page.

It looks like a nice original DWM Alphabet Commerical Luger. The case is aftermarket, made by Pacific Canvas in the USA.

The pistol was made for commercial export from Germany. The gun's serial number is on the front of the frame and includes the suffix letter. If the suffix letter under the numeric digits has been damaged or obscured that would be a potential ATF issue, and drop value.

The serial number digits do not look like DWM dies, and it's very possible that the gun and the barrel has been renumbered. That would reduce the pistol to "Shooter" class, not collector class, and drop the value of the gun and one magazine to $700. If the numbers were changed or obscured, there could be ATF issues.

The grip wear does drop the value somewhat. I would reduce David's value estimate by at least $100. Case contributes $75 to value; Each magazine $90 to value

The golden color on parts is called "straw" and is normal. It's a form of fire / heat bluing.

Thanks, I really appreciate the information! I did try to look at some of the stickys, but I think I missed the caliber one.

~bs · 11-26-2017, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

And in "focus".

Sorry, I never really realized how difficult it was to take pictures of firearms before this!

~bs · 11-26-2017, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

The frame suffix appears to be u (thus made in 1929) partially overstamped by a crown. Crown overstamping of the letter suffix is not common, there are several examples reported. the reason is unknown. It is not likely to be part of the Rif contract; it is suspected that the Rif guns are the s, t, and u suffix commercial police pistols without the DWM hallmark.

The grips on your pistol are not original.

For the pistol with the complete set of case and accessories, your cost was reasonable.

--Dwight

Sucks about the grips. Do you think the bluing is original?

Any ideas on the rust mitigation? Should I just leave it, or shoudl I try to polish with brass wool

Below is the best I can do picture wise. Its really hard to tell if it's overstamped or something

Edward Tinker · 11-26-2017, 04:54 AM

Active rust should be stopped ��
Bronze wool, or 0000 steel wool and oil, lightly used won’t hurt the bluing.

The box of ammo if full is worth about $50+
The tool with the handle is interesting and worth a bot more, loading tool $50
Amounts above close, so you did fine...

Sergio Natali · 11-26-2017, 04:57 AM

I like it, I think it's a very nice DWM Alphabet Commercial LUGER with a nice case too, unortunately "commercial" pistols are hardly so interesting and priced as their military counterparts, FWICS you paid a fair price for pistol mags & case.

Welcome to our Luger community!

DavidJayUden · 11-26-2017, 09:26 AM

That's an interesting over-stamp. Thoughts?
dju

~bs · 11-26-2017, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

The frame suffix appears to be u (thus made in 1929) partially overstamped by a crown. Crown overstamping of the letter suffix is not common, there are several examples reported. the reason is unknown. It is not likely to be part of the Rif contract; it is suspected that the Rif guns are the s, t, and u suffix commercial police pistols without the DWM hallmark.

The grips on your pistol are not original.

For the pistol with the complete set of case and accessories, your cost was reasonable.

--Dwight

Actually now that I'm looking at it again, I think you're right. and you saw it without the benefit of a clearer picture.

It basically looks like a cursive U, with the crown covering the bottom part of it.

m1903a3 · 11-27-2017, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~bs

<snip>
Why does certain parts of the gun appear to have a goldish hue? Is that tarnish? <snip>

No, not tarnish. Some small parts of the DWM Lugers were heat treated to a temperature that causes the parts to turn a yellow/gold hue called "straw". Typically the trigger, take down lever and safely are among the straw parts.

Lugerdoc · 11-27-2017, 11:58 AM

I agree that this is the Crown overstamp on the original suffix letter. I'm surprised that none of the luger researchers have been able to determine why or by whom this was done. It's been my observation that the suffix letters that I seen overstamped like this were in the s,t & u blocks, which would put them in the 1928-29 BKIW production era. TH

11-22-2017, 11:26 PM	#1
~bs User Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Valuation DWM Luger Hello, So I've been buying some guns on estate and I'd like to get an idea of what this gun is worth. The family wanted 1 grand on the gun and wouldn't budge. I rushed bought the gun, thinking I probably overpaid, but it did have a nice collector box, which I imagine was from the time it was imported into the US (given the "germany" mark). And the 50 round ammunition included with it is sealed (perhaps sealed later, not sure if they had plastics back then). Anyways, any more info on the gun and hopefully value at least equal to what I paid is appreciated! Does the lower serial number (826) have any significance? Numbers on various parts of the gun all matching, as far as I can tell. There appears to be rust starting on the side of the pistol, any recommended treatments or ways to mitigate this? The picture of the left side of the gun shows the rust spot. On the cover plate. Why does certain parts of the gun appear to have a goldish hue? Is that tarnish? The right side of the gun mag ejector spot and part of the trigger. a lot lighter in color than in the picture. I posted this up on a different forum earlier trying to get a valuation, and someone mentioned it's something called straw due to the way the metal part was hardened. Front and back of the grip shows wear, I think the picture adequately depicts it. The guy I bought the gun was a shooter, and he shot all his guns, even the collectible ones. I think the gun may have started off brand new or close to it in the collector box, but the wear on the grip and other areas are from the gun being used. Is there any easy way to tell for certainty what caliber the gun is? It's not marked on the weapon itself as far as I can tell.

11-23-2017, 10:59 AM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	We discuss many things including how to determine caliber in the FAQ document published free on this website. Follow the FAQ link at the top of the page. It looks like a nice original DWM Alphabet Commerical Luger. The case is aftermarket, made by Pacific Canvas in the USA. The pistol was made for commercial export from Germany. The gun's serial number is on the front of the frame and includes the suffix letter. If the suffix letter under the numeric digits has been damaged or obscured that would be a potential ATF issue, and drop value. The serial number digits do not look like DWM dies, and it's very possible that the gun and the barrel has been renumbered. That would reduce the pistol to "Shooter" class, not collector class, and drop the value of the gun and one magazine to $700. If the numbers were changed or obscured, there could be ATF issues. The grip wear does drop the value somewhat. I would reduce David's value estimate by at least $100. Case contributes $75 to value; Each magazine $90 to value The golden color on parts is called "straw" and is normal. It's a form of fire / heat bluing. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-23-2017, 12:23 PM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	bs, I feel that you got your money's worth for all the items shown in your photos. As previously requested, a clear photo of the suffix letter below the serial on your frame may be of interest. If the letter suffix has been over-stamped with a crown, this may indicate what was called a "Riff contract" which has never been proven to exist. Since no one knows for sure what this indicates, it at least does make it different from it's original normal commerical production. I suspect that this marking was modified by recipient country (?), to indicate their ownership, similar to the Finish SA marking to indicate army possession. This may be an area worthy of some research. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-26-2017, 04:54 AM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Active rust should be stopped �� Bronze wool, or 0000 steel wool and oil, lightly used won’t hurt the bluing. The box of ammo if full is worth about $50+ The tool with the handle is interesting and worth a bot more, loading tool $50 Amounts above close, so you did fine... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-26-2017, 04:57 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I like it, I think it's a very nice DWM Alphabet Commercial LUGER with a nice case too, unortunately "commercial" pistols are hardly so interesting and priced as their military counterparts, FWICS you paid a fair price for pistol mags & case. Welcome to our Luger community! __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

11-23-2017, 12:50 AM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It appears to be run-of-the-mill commercial "alphabet" Luger in .30 cal. Regarding the low serial number possibly increasing the value of the gun, no not really, but I'd like to see a good photo of the numbers on the front of the frame and particularly the marking just beneath. I know nothing of the box, but it does present well and should be worth $1k with the 3 magazines, ammo, etc. dju

11-23-2017, 12:40 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Please get us those close-up photos of markings! dju

11-23-2017, 06:17 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	The frame suffix appears to be u (thus made in 1929) partially overstamped by a crown. Crown overstamping of the letter suffix is not common, there are several examples reported. the reason is unknown. It is not likely to be part of the Rif contract; it is suspected that the Rif guns are the s, t, and u suffix commercial police pistols without the DWM hallmark. The grips on your pistol are not original. For the pistol with the complete set of case and accessories, your cost was reasonable. --Dwight

11-26-2017, 09:26 AM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	That's an interesting over-stamp. Thoughts? dju

11-27-2017, 11:58 AM	#16
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I agree that this is the Crown overstamp on the original suffix letter. I'm surprised that none of the luger researchers have been able to determine why or by whom this was done. It's been my observation that the suffix letters that I seen overstamped like this were in the s,t & u blocks, which would put them in the 1928-29 BKIW production era. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net