Something new to ponder

Ron Wood · 09-07-2017, 02:06 PM

One of the distinguishing features of the Old Model (1900) Luger is the square cornered side plate that is flush with the frame on the right hand edge. Just recently Tim Hawkens acquired a 1900 Commercial in the 15XXX serial number range. In looking at the photos it appeared that the side plate stands just a bit proud of the frame rather than flush. I called Tim and he verified that this is indeed the case.

I had also just recently taken note of my ’02 Carbine when Jerry Burney was in search of a proper side plate for the Carbine he is resurrecting, and observed that the side plate on it also is proud of the frame. This prompted me to look further at my ’02 Fat Barrel, Cartridge Counter and ’03 French Transitional. Lo and behold, they also have the proud side plate.

So now, this begs the question…when did the change in the Old Model side plate take place. From this very cursory initial investigation I am guessing that was in the late 1902-early 1903 time frame. Tim’s gun sets a starting point at the 15XXX serial number range. It would be interesting for those of you that have Old Model Lugers to check their side plates…we might be able to narrow down the serial number range when this small change took place.

By the way, before you ask, I have no idea why the change was made.

Ron

mrerick · 09-07-2017, 03:39 PM

Ron, This is Swiss 2813. It is fitted proud to the frame on the right edge and in the trigger guard area. Red arrows indicate.

Thiis makes me wonder if the standard plate always left enough metal to be proud of the frame, but the process of fitting it milled some down farther than others?

ithacaartist · 09-07-2017, 04:15 PM

The side plate of my 1900 commercial s.n. 3402 is flush. It is probably too early for your purposes in this matter.

Karl · 09-07-2017, 08:11 PM

Great observation Ron,

M1900 AE 8748 flush side plate.

KFS

Lyn Islaub · 09-07-2017, 08:48 PM

18660 is like Tim's in that the fit of the right side of the side plate is a bit proud.

Ron Wood · 09-08-2017, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

The side plate of my 1900 commercial s.n. 3402 is flush. It is probably too early for your purposes in this matter.

Dave,
Yes, it is a bit early. I have a 1900 Commercial that probably was made the same day (or close to it) as yours, #3453!
Ron

mrerick · 09-08-2017, 07:36 PM

This is another DWM made Swiss, M1900/06 sn 11816 made in 1909. The plate is clearly proud of the frame in this picture.

Ron Wood · 09-08-2017, 09:39 PM

Excellent! Thank you.
Ron

JTD · 09-09-2017, 10:27 AM

Ron, 1900 AE #10052 flush side plate. John

hayhugh · 09-09-2017, 10:46 AM

DWM commercial - 4512 flush
DWM Swiss military - 1264 flush

Ron Wood · 09-09-2017, 02:11 PM

Concerning this side plate study, I did not realize that I was plowing ground that had already been worked. As mentioned in this topic on Jan Still's forum and then confirmed by Charles Whittaker via Jerry Burney (Charles is a "lurker" on the Jan Still forum and a super source of information ) this difference in side plates is already quite well covered in Görtz & Sturgess "The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols". According to that source, the change occurred around commercial serial number 10050 and Swiss second military contract (serial number 2001 and above). That pretty firmly locks in the transition to ~1903. End of pondering...thanks to all that participated.

Significant note:
John, your AE #10052 falls right at the range in G&S and pushes the transition a bit higher than their 10050! Thank you!
Ron

Sergio Natali · 09-10-2017, 09:26 AM

Ron

The side plate of my Swiss DWM 1900 commercial s/n 763 is absolutely flush.

Ron Wood · 09-10-2017, 11:45 AM

Sergio.
Congratulations on owning such an early specimen! Does your Swiss still have an unrelieved frame and flat button magazine?
Ron

Sergio Natali · 09-10-2017, 04:08 PM

Absolutely, early production Model 1900 Swiss Luger chambered in 7.65mm Luger, its chamber is stamped with Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" crest, unrelieved frame and low button magazine.

Ron Wood · 09-10-2017, 05:19 PM

Wonderful example!
Ron

cirelaw · 09-10-2017, 06:34 PM

Sergio VERY COOL!

09-07-2017, 03:39 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Ron, This is Swiss 2813. It is fitted proud to the frame on the right edge and in the trigger guard area. Red arrows indicate. Thiis makes me wonder if the standard plate always left enough metal to be proud of the frame, but the process of fitting it milled some down farther than others? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-08-2017, 07:36 PM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	This is another DWM made Swiss, M1900/06 sn 11816 made in 1909. The plate is clearly proud of the frame in this picture. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-08-2017, 09:39 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Excellent! Thank you. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-09-2017, 02:11 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Concerning this side plate study, I did not realize that I was plowing ground that had already been worked. As mentioned in this topic on Jan Still's forum and then confirmed by Charles Whittaker via Jerry Burney (Charles is a "lurker" on the Jan Still forum and a super source of information ) this difference in side plates is already quite well covered in Görtz & Sturgess "The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols". According to that source, the change occurred around commercial serial number 10050 and Swiss second military contract (serial number 2001 and above). That pretty firmly locks in the transition to ~1903. End of pondering...thanks to all that participated. Significant note: John, your AE #10052 falls right at the range in G&S and pushes the transition a bit higher than their 10050! Thank you! Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-10-2017, 09:26 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Ron The side plate of my Swiss DWM 1900 commercial s/n 763 is absolutely flush. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-07-2017, 02:06 PM	#1
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Something new to ponder One of the distinguishing features of the Old Model (1900) Luger is the square cornered side plate that is flush with the frame on the right hand edge. Just recently Tim Hawkens acquired a 1900 Commercial in the 15XXX serial number range. In looking at the photos it appeared that the side plate stands just a bit proud of the frame rather than flush. I called Tim and he verified that this is indeed the case. I had also just recently taken note of my ’02 Carbine when Jerry Burney was in search of a proper side plate for the Carbine he is resurrecting, and observed that the side plate on it also is proud of the frame. This prompted me to look further at my ’02 Fat Barrel, Cartridge Counter and ’03 French Transitional. Lo and behold, they also have the proud side plate. So now, this begs the question…when did the change in the Old Model side plate take place. From this very cursory initial investigation I am guessing that was in the late 1902-early 1903 time frame. Tim’s gun sets a starting point at the 15XXX serial number range. It would be interesting for those of you that have Old Model Lugers to check their side plates…we might be able to narrow down the serial number range when this small change took place. By the way, before you ask, I have no idea why the change was made. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-07-2017, 04:15 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,339 Thanks: 7,263 Thanked 2,564 Times in 1,362 Posts	The side plate of my 1900 commercial s.n. 3402 is flush. It is probably too early for your purposes in this matter. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

09-07-2017, 08:11 PM	#4
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 520 Thanks: 0 Thanked 266 Times in 116 Posts	Great observation Ron, M1900 AE 8748 flush side plate. KFS

09-07-2017, 08:48 PM	#5
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	18660 is like Tim's in that the fit of the right side of the side plate is a bit proud.

09-09-2017, 10:27 AM	#9
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	Ron, 1900 AE #10052 flush side plate. John

09-09-2017, 10:46 AM	#10
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 894 Thanks: 856 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	DWM commercial - 4512 flush DWM Swiss military - 1264 flush Last edited by hayhugh; 09-09-2017 at 10:58 AM. Reason: More info

09-10-2017, 11:45 AM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Sergio. Congratulations on owning such an early specimen! Does your Swiss still have an unrelieved frame and flat button magazine? Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-10-2017, 04:08 PM	#14
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Absolutely, early production Model 1900 Swiss Luger chambered in 7.65mm Luger, its chamber is stamped with Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" crest, unrelieved frame and low button magazine. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-10-2017, 05:19 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Wonderful example! Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-10-2017, 06:34 PM	#16
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Sergio VERY COOL!