Reblue v original - Page 2

tharpo · 01-26-2008, 06:00 PM

Here's the photo.

Heinz · 01-26-2008, 09:07 PM

Alf, There would be no reason for the toggle link to be assembled when the parts are dip blued at the factory. Bill Lyon indicated his 1939 and 1940 had links that were in the white.

Many gunsmiths doing rebluing do not know how to dissamble the Luger toggle apparently. Dipping the assembled toogle train in a bluing hot salt tank would NOT be a good practice.

A.Mifsin · 01-27-2008, 03:42 AM

Right you are, and since Bill's Lugers, the 1938 and the 1941 have their toggle link in the white I think that indicates that Lugers at Mauser were first blued then assembled, which why the toggle link is in the white.

As you said few know how to dissamble the toggle link of the luger that is why they dip it without dissamble it first, or because it is done by mass production as have been done by Russian armouries with captured Lugers.
Alf

DonWallbaum · 11-24-2008, 06:10 PM

Gentlefolk;

Please forgive the ravening ignorance, but... I have ravening ignorance.

I am well aware that a re-blued Luger has lost its collection value - I would not want to take my 1938 Mauer and have it refinished. Fair enough...

What I don't understand is why?

Presumably, the weapon would be stripped, cleaned, refinished and therefore protected to a far better extent than its current condition.

So while this makes sense to me, it is clearly incorrect. Could someone explain why old weapons should not be refurbished?

thx!

Don

John D. · 11-24-2008, 06:58 PM

Hi Don..!!

First - there is a difference between "reblued" and "restored".. When someone say "reblued" to me, I can only think of wavy buff marks, a hot dip in cold blue - and well, you know

A "restoration" is a different story.. Very few can do a great restoration - making it look like it just left the factory...

However - as a collector - while "restorations" are far superior than "reblues" - it still is NOT the way it left the factory over 50 years ago..??

Sooo....... It really depends on what you want?? If you want a quick "fixer-upper" for an old tired out gal - yep - a reblue could do it..

If you want it to look like it left for the factory - then a restoration might be in your future??

However - if it is all original today - just worn and tired - I'd vote to leave her the way she is... Old and tired and original isn't so bad.. Ever seen an old woman with a poor facelift???

Yea - it's sort'a like that..

John

DonWallbaum · 11-25-2008, 10:42 AM

Hi John;

OK, very interesting, I appreciate your thoughts. Now, lets back up a bit...

Say, for example, a guy hass.... ummm... for example, a Mod. 28 Smith & Wesson - a .357 on a .44 frame. Let's also say, for argument's sake, that this was the first weapon this guy bought, and as other toys got into the chest, the poor S&W Mod. 28, once cherished, is now showing the signs of neglect. Just finish wear, no rust yet, but the blue is not lustrous... it looks like a weapon bought 30 years ago, and now lives life in a rug.

Not collectable (to my knowledge), must be a zillion out there, but a nice shooter, even if the stock grips were marginal and the 4" barrel was not the best choice for a .357.

In this context, what is your opinion about getting it .. . I guess the term is "refurbished". Cleaned up, buffed up, maybe the action smoothed a bit. A dye job to cover the bald spots....

Is the consensus here that _any_ weapon is best left in stock state?

thx!

Don

John Sabato · 11-25-2008, 11:08 AM

The Model 28 smith and wesson is not likely to be a collectible in your lifetime, or perhaps even your next generation heirs lifetime. It is a workhorse of a firearm and if you want it pretty by all means make it pretty. ALL Luger pistols are collectible pistols and the rules therefore can't be the same... whether a parts gun, or a pristine example... there are a limited number of Luger pistols and they aren't ever going to make any more that were made from 1898 to 1945. It is a finite number of guns and there are an ever increasing number of enthusiasts and collectors... unwarranted modifications will reduce collector value in almost all cases.

Went Blakely · 11-27-2008, 11:54 PM

I think of it this way, a luger pistol is a historical 'weapon'
As is, let's say......a grenade.........which is a 'weapon' also
You wouldn't want to keep a live grenade in your collection, but rather, an 'inert' one, but just because the 'weapon' aspect has been taken away from it, doesn't fault all the history and authenticity from it. Just the same as a pistol, although its main 'weaponary' purpose has been taken away from it, it can still be a very fascinating piece. Just the way i look at it

DonWallbaum · 12-01-2008, 03:00 PM

John;

<ggg>
Yeah, the S&W Mod. 28 is a pretty blunt weapon... not a lot of elegance to it... goes "bang" well, however..

DonWallbaum · 12-01-2008, 03:07 PM

Went;

Yeah, interesting and valid approach, but I for one like machines that work. Olde Tyme motorcycles are amazing pieces of art and engineering, but if I go to a concours, I want to see the things fired up and ridden.

Just staring at 100-year-old carburetors doesn't do a lot for me. Absent a machine from its function, and all you have is formed metal.

Don

cma22inc · 12-01-2008, 03:22 PM

A firearm without the function it was designed for is likened to oh I don't know....

A human being without the inalienable right to self defense...

Sad state of affairs that someone has less rights as a human just because of where they live and a damn shame that a historic piece like a luger has to be wrecked just to be kept.

Went Blakely · 12-02-2008, 12:17 AM

Yeah this is true in regards to both replies, i just like to look on the bright side i suppose, and am very lucky pistols arent banned here (yet?!) But it would still be good to have a functioning and strippable one, even not firing, to admire the enginuity behind it. A luger deac is better than no luger at all

Anywho, i think we should keep (get the thread) back on topic

alvin · 12-02-2008, 07:40 AM

According to my observation (of course, it must have been observed by hundreds of collectors in the past), there was another type of reblue called "period reblue", probably done by government before a pistol was re-issued. Looks like the major difference between this type of reblue and modern professional restoration was (1) the gun was in relatively good shape before the process; (2) it's batch job and no sanding nor buffing performed, so some round corners, less than sharp edges (via normal usage in its past) were under gun blue.

Any other characteristics or additions?

Wastoute · 05-25-2017, 09:27 AM

It seems to me a '68 Camero is a good analogy. You could be looking at three or even four cars that in a photo all look exactly the same. One might have an entirely fiberglass body on a tubular steel frame. One might have been assembled from "original parts" but those of 20 or 30 different vehicles. One might have "never been touched" but had 250,000 miles put on it. One could have been put in storage when the owner went to VIet Nam and the family couldn't bear to part with it and it has been well preserved with 300 original miles....
I would love to have all four but what I would expect to pay would vary all over the map and my budget means I get to look at the photo....

01-26-2008, 06:00 PM	#21
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 116 Thanked 382 Times in 157 Posts	Here's the photo. Attached Thumbnails

01-27-2008, 03:42 AM	#23
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Right you are, and since Bill's Lugers, the 1938 and the 1941 have their toggle link in the white I think that indicates that Lugers at Mauser were first blued then assembled, which why the toggle link is in the white. As you said few know how to dissamble the toggle link of the luger that is why they dip it without dissamble it first, or because it is done by mass production as have been done by Russian armouries with captured Lugers. Alf __________________ I prefer a Luger

11-25-2008, 11:08 AM	#27
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	The Model 28 smith and wesson is not likely to be a collectible in your lifetime, or perhaps even your next generation heirs lifetime. It is a workhorse of a firearm and if you want it pretty by all means make it pretty. ALL Luger pistols are collectible pistols and the rules therefore can't be the same... whether a parts gun, or a pristine example... there are a limited number of Luger pistols and they aren't ever going to make any more that were made from 1898 to 1945. It is a finite number of guns and there are an ever increasing number of enthusiasts and collectors... unwarranted modifications will reduce collector value in almost all cases. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-27-2008, 11:54 PM	#28
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	I think of it this way, a luger pistol is a historical 'weapon' As is, let's say......a grenade.........which is a 'weapon' also You wouldn't want to keep a live grenade in your collection, but rather, an 'inert' one, but just because the 'weapon' aspect has been taken away from it, doesn't fault all the history and authenticity from it. Just the same as a pistol, although its main 'weaponary' purpose has been taken away from it, it can still be a very fascinating piece. Just the way i look at it __________________ Went Blakely

12-02-2008, 12:17 AM	#32
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Yeah this is true in regards to both replies, i just like to look on the bright side i suppose, and am very lucky pistols arent banned here (yet?!) But it would still be good to have a functioning and strippable one, even not firing, to admire the enginuity behind it. A luger deac is better than no luger at all Anywho, i think we should keep (get the thread) back on topic __________________ Went Blakely

01-26-2008, 09:07 PM	#22
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Alf, There would be no reason for the toggle link to be assembled when the parts are dip blued at the factory. Bill Lyon indicated his 1939 and 1940 had links that were in the white. Many gunsmiths doing rebluing do not know how to dissamble the Luger toggle apparently. Dipping the assembled toogle train in a bluing hot salt tank would NOT be a good practice.

11-24-2008, 06:10 PM	#24
DonWallbaum User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Logan, OH USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Gentlefolk; Please forgive the ravening ignorance, but... I have ravening ignorance. I am well aware that a re-blued Luger has lost its collection value - I would not want to take my 1938 Mauer and have it refinished. Fair enough... What I don't understand is why? Presumably, the weapon would be stripped, cleaned, refinished and therefore protected to a far better extent than its current condition. So while this makes sense to me, it is clearly incorrect. Could someone explain why old weapons should not be refurbished? thx! Don

11-24-2008, 06:58 PM	#25
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Don..!! First - there is a difference between "reblued" and "restored".. When someone say "reblued" to me, I can only think of wavy buff marks, a hot dip in cold blue - and well, you know A "restoration" is a different story.. Very few can do a great restoration - making it look like it just left the factory... However - as a collector - while "restorations" are far superior than "reblues" - it still is NOT the way it left the factory over 50 years ago..?? Sooo....... It really depends on what you want?? If you want a quick "fixer-upper" for an old tired out gal - yep - a reblue could do it.. If you want it to look like it left for the factory - then a restoration might be in your future?? However - if it is all original today - just worn and tired - I'd vote to leave her the way she is... Old and tired and original isn't so bad.. Ever seen an old woman with a poor facelift??? Yea - it's sort'a like that.. John

11-25-2008, 10:42 AM	#26
DonWallbaum User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Logan, OH USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi John; OK, very interesting, I appreciate your thoughts. Now, lets back up a bit... Say, for example, a guy hass.... ummm... for example, a Mod. 28 Smith & Wesson - a .357 on a .44 frame. Let's also say, for argument's sake, that this was the first weapon this guy bought, and as other toys got into the chest, the poor S&W Mod. 28, once cherished, is now showing the signs of neglect. Just finish wear, no rust yet, but the blue is not lustrous... it looks like a weapon bought 30 years ago, and now lives life in a rug. Not collectable (to my knowledge), must be a zillion out there, but a nice shooter, even if the stock grips were marginal and the 4" barrel was not the best choice for a .357. In this context, what is your opinion about getting it .. . I guess the term is "refurbished". Cleaned up, buffed up, maybe the action smoothed a bit. A dye job to cover the bald spots.... Is the consensus here that _any_ weapon is best left in stock state? thx! Don

12-01-2008, 03:00 PM	#29
DonWallbaum User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Logan, OH USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John; <ggg> Yeah, the S&W Mod. 28 is a pretty blunt weapon... not a lot of elegance to it... goes "bang" well, however..

12-01-2008, 03:07 PM	#30
DonWallbaum User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Logan, OH USA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Went; Yeah, interesting and valid approach, but I for one like machines that work. Olde Tyme motorcycles are amazing pieces of art and engineering, but if I go to a concours, I want to see the things fired up and ridden. Just staring at 100-year-old carburetors doesn't do a lot for me. Absent a machine from its function, and all you have is formed metal. Don

12-01-2008, 03:22 PM	#31
cma22inc User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Tampa Bay FL Posts: 93 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	A firearm without the function it was designed for is likened to oh I don't know.... A human being without the inalienable right to self defense... Sad state of affairs that someone has less rights as a human just because of where they live and a damn shame that a historic piece like a luger has to be wrecked just to be kept.

12-02-2008, 07:40 AM	#33
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	According to my observation (of course, it must have been observed by hundreds of collectors in the past), there was another type of reblue called "period reblue", probably done by government before a pistol was re-issued. Looks like the major difference between this type of reblue and modern professional restoration was (1) the gun was in relatively good shape before the process; (2) it's batch job and no sanding nor buffing performed, so some round corners, less than sharp edges (via normal usage in its past) were under gun blue. Any other characteristics or additions? Last edited by alvin; 12-02-2008 at 08:10 AM.

05-25-2017, 09:27 AM	#34
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	It seems to me a '68 Camero is a good analogy. You could be looking at three or even four cars that in a photo all look exactly the same. One might have an entirely fiberglass body on a tubular steel frame. One might have been assembled from "original parts" but those of 20 or 30 different vehicles. One might have "never been touched" but had 250,000 miles put on it. One could have been put in storage when the owner went to VIet Nam and the family couldn't bear to part with it and it has been well preserved with 300 original miles.... I would love to have all four but what I would expect to pay would vary all over the map and my budget means I get to look at the photo....