1914 Erfurt P-08 Spotted...

Pete Ebbink · 09-13-2002, 06:48 PM

For those that might be tracking a database of Erfurt lugers, I spotted the following 1914 Erfurt in Indiana at a gun shop called :

Switz City Guns
251 N. State Road 67
Switz City, IN.
(812) 659-9190

1914 Erfurt, serial # 7373 a, all matching numbers. Original finish is ~ 92-93%, with some light brown patina on the front grip strap. There was some evidence of a little cold blue on the right "ear" flat of the frame.

Unit front grip strap is marked "2.M.G.67"

Magazine is not correct as being blue, extruded, with aluminum bottom.

All small parts were Erfurt stamped except both grip screws, which look like modern replacements.

Small parts strawing was at about 50% or so.

Another problem noted is that the barrel witness mark is missing, but the frame witness mark is there. Barrel only has the "7373" serial number, with no "a". Barrel also is stamped with bore diameter and all barrel stamps have that "halo" effect.

Both wooden grips are in v-g condition with clean and decent checkering. The million dollar chip is not missing. Inside of both grip panels are nubmered "73" and have a Erfurt crown stamping.

Asking price was high at $1,100.00 but this included a very good brown luger holster with honest age and wear present.

The Owner of the shop was not in and the guys behind the gun case did not know if gun/holster would be sold separately and for how much each...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Jan C Still · 09-14-2002, 10:36 PM

Pete
Thanks for the information.
jan

Greg · 09-15-2002, 09:21 AM

Pete,

What is a "witness" mark?

wterrell · 09-15-2002, 10:16 AM

Jan,
Check your private messages, please.

Doubs · 09-15-2002, 12:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Greg:
<strong>Pete, What is a "witness" mark?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Greg, a "witness mark" is usually a line that is either scribed or stamped across the ajoining surfaces of two parts that are mated. They provide a means of ensuring proper alignment of the two parts and would normally be applied after the parts have been properly put together.

The Luger will usually have witness marks on the underside of the barrel/receiver joint and the standard 100mm barrel models will have them on the front sight and front sight base on the top. Some Artillery Lugers - those with fine tune front sights - will have a center mark on the very front of the sight and three marks on the front of the sight base for reference.

While not used on the Luger, a witness mark may also be a dot or arrow etc. that provides an alignment reference.

Pete Ebbink · 09-15-2002, 01:33 PM

Hello Jan :

Glad I could help...

Hello Greg :

In addition to what Doubs has written, I have added a nice photo from The Dutch Luger book by Martens & de Vries, on page 135. Firing up my scanner is alot easier than setting up for photography.

Looking for witness marks (aka barrel-receiver alignment thingy marks... [img]wink.gif[/img] ) is also an aid in telling if a luger had been rebarreled at some point in time. Sometimes you will see the 1/2 of the witness mark missing on the barrel, if rebarreled. Other times after a rebarrel, a "new" witness mark is added, but the new and old do not match. I have also been told that good "forgers" are getting very good at "recreating" the barrel witness mark so it may be hard to tell what is old and what is new; so consult an expert if in doubt...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Greg · 09-15-2002, 02:15 PM

Pete & Doubs,

Thanks! That was (to me) an unfamiliar term used to describe this feature.

Greg

09-13-2002, 06:48 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1914 Erfurt P-08 Spotted... For those that might be tracking a database of Erfurt lugers, I spotted the following 1914 Erfurt in Indiana at a gun shop called : Switz City Guns 251 N. State Road 67 Switz City, IN. (812) 659-9190 1914 Erfurt, serial # 7373 a, all matching numbers. Original finish is ~ 92-93%, with some light brown patina on the front grip strap. There was some evidence of a little cold blue on the right "ear" flat of the frame. Unit front grip strap is marked "2.M.G.67" Magazine is not correct as being blue, extruded, with aluminum bottom. All small parts were Erfurt stamped except both grip screws, which look like modern replacements. Small parts strawing was at about 50% or so. Another problem noted is that the barrel witness mark is missing, but the frame witness mark is there. Barrel only has the "7373" serial number, with no "a". Barrel also is stamped with bore diameter and all barrel stamps have that "halo" effect. Both wooden grips are in v-g condition with clean and decent checkering. The million dollar chip is not missing. Inside of both grip panels are nubmered "73" and have a Erfurt crown stamping. Asking price was high at $1,100.00 but this included a very good brown luger holster with honest age and wear present. The Owner of the shop was not in and the guys behind the gun case did not know if gun/holster would be sold separately and for how much each... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-15-2002, 10:16 AM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jan, Check your private messages, please. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-14-2002, 10:36 PM	#2
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Pete Thanks for the information. jan

09-15-2002, 09:21 AM	#3
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, What is a "witness" mark?

09-15-2002, 12:36 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,695 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,677 Times in 551 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Greg: <strong>Pete, What is a "witness" mark?</strong><hr></blockquote> Greg, a "witness mark" is usually a line that is either scribed or stamped across the ajoining surfaces of two parts that are mated. They provide a means of ensuring proper alignment of the two parts and would normally be applied after the parts have been properly put together. The Luger will usually have witness marks on the underside of the barrel/receiver joint and the standard 100mm barrel models will have them on the front sight and front sight base on the top. Some Artillery Lugers - those with fine tune front sights - will have a center mark on the very front of the sight and three marks on the front of the sight base for reference. While not used on the Luger, a witness mark may also be a dot or arrow etc. that provides an alignment reference.

09-15-2002, 01:33 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jan : Glad I could help... Hello Greg : In addition to what Doubs has written, I have added a nice photo from The Dutch Luger book by Martens & de Vries, on page 135. Firing up my scanner is alot easier than setting up for photography. Looking for witness marks (aka barrel-receiver alignment thingy marks... [img]wink.gif[/img] ) is also an aid in telling if a luger had been rebarreled at some point in time. Sometimes you will see the 1/2 of the witness mark missing on the barrel, if rebarreled. Other times after a rebarrel, a "new" witness mark is added, but the new and old do not match. I have also been told that good "forgers" are getting very good at "recreating" the barrel witness mark so it may be hard to tell what is old and what is new; so consult an expert if in doubt... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-15-2002, 02:15 PM	#7
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete & Doubs, Thanks! That was (to me) an unfamiliar term used to describe this feature. Greg