"Parkerized" BYF

Marc · 10-27-2002, 01:36 PM

Hello,

Just seen this "parkerized" Luger for sale.

parkerized 1942 BYF

Is this legit? [img]confused.gif[/img]

I just find it interesting that they advertise quote "the only Luger ever produced with a parkerized finish" unquote. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

What's a parkerized finish anyway?

Thanks for your input.

Marc <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Navy · 10-27-2002, 02:02 PM

These were produced by Mauser under contract to Portugal.

A parkerized finish is a matte, non-reflective finish that is produced by an acidic (?) process that etches the surface metal and imparts an extremely durable surface that is easily protected with oil-based lubricants as the porosity of the finish alows the oil to penetrate the skin surface,IIRC.

Parkerization was used on US military firearms almost exclusively starting about 1935 or so. It varies somewhat in color from flat gray to a slight olive cast based on what type of oil/lubricant was initially used to temper and cure the finish.

I maynot be absolutely right on the nature of the process as I am no metalurgist, but I think I have it basically right. FWIW, I have always thought that a parked Luger was a pretty good idea for military applications.

Tom A

Johnny Peppers · 10-27-2002, 03:29 PM

The Luger may have had a phosphate finish, but certainly not a Parkerized finish. Parkerize is the trade name for a phosphate finish developed by the Parker Rustproof Co. of Detroit, Michigan. The U.S. started applying a phosphate finish to the Model 1903 Rifle in 1918 and used it on virtually all weapons in WWII. The Model 1911A1 was one of the last weapons to have a phosphate finish, as Colt changed from an oven blued finish to the phosphate finish in mid 1941. Basically there are two different types of phosphate finish, manganese and zinc, which accounts for a difference in color of the finish. The color is also affected by the type and hardness of the steel it is applied to.

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2002, 07:10 PM

I read recently (but cannot now find the reference) that the Finns "parkerized" some of their P-08s during re-work. I have seen two examples, both with the characteristic Finnish front sights and one with the SA stamp.

--Dwight

Roadkill · 10-27-2002, 08:50 PM

I had a broomhandle with a phosphate finish. It was done by an armorer buddy on one of those 80s Chinese imports. Looked good, shot low left though. Probably sold somewhere as the only Mauser 96 with a parkerized finish.

rk

Thor · 10-27-2002, 09:36 PM

As most already know, many late Mauser P.38s were phosphate finished. The German light gray was always my favorite, the dual tones are nice (blued barrels, phosphate slide and frame) Lonnie has got my (previously my) nice minty Dual tone.
Marvin has some nice ones as does my buddy Bill Stanley. The phosphate finish is tough and much harder to remove than regular salt bluing. A functional finish for a pistol that might see hard use.

Doubs · 10-28-2002, 12:55 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill:
I had a broomhandle with a phosphate finish. It was done by an armorer buddy on one of those 80s Chinese imports. Looked good, shot low left though. Probably sold somewhere as the only Mauser 96 with a parkerized finish. rk<hr></blockquote>

Someone was taken then because I had one parkerized (mil-spec) a few years back AND it had a Mauser rifle front sight base and blade too. It shot as good as it looked.

Marc · 10-28-2002, 01:49 AM

Thank you everyone for the reply.

My "Luger Knowledge" is growing every time I visit this site. Again, thanks to all of you for the info.

Marc <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Alain · 10-28-2002, 05:11 AM

I definitely have to raise the flag here.

The French Army used parkerized Po8's which also had a five pointed star struck on them.
These Po8's were mainly used in Indochina and a little bit in Algeria. They were also used by the Gendarmerie.

A bientÃ?Â´t,

Alain

Lugerdoc · 10-28-2002, 07:24 AM

Alain, Most of the 42BYFs in the m &n suffix range, that went to Portugal, will have the phosphate finish and British proofs. I some how doubt that this way the original 1942 Mauser finish, since Mauser didn't start using it on P38s until 1944, but I stand to be corrected. Any original blued M or N range 42 BYFs out there with E/135 proofs? Quite often the Portugese contract PO8s will be equipted with their replacement "Black Widow" grips, which have courser checkering and wider boarder, than the WW2 German ones. Tom H.

saxman · 10-28-2002, 08:59 PM

Johnny Peppers; U.S. carbines (yes, I know some carbines were blued) and rifles were Parkerized/phosphated through the M-14. Many parts on M-16s, including barrels, are still manganese phosphated. This process will probably be in use by the U.S. military for many more years.

Doubs · 10-28-2002, 10:01 PM

Off topic a bit but a true story.

The late Ed Banks was one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the country and a good friend until his untimely death. He was retired Air Force and worked Civil Service at Robins AFB, GA, until he retired a second time.

He once told me that his Parkerized finish on the 1911's he worked on was called to the attention of the people responsible for the Navy's arms. The Navy formally contacted him and wanted to know his "secret". He referred them to a military manual that listed GI specs for phosphate finishing. (His job at Robins AFB required him to work with the Navy on a regular basis so he was quite familiar with Navy Regs as well as AF Regs.)

When someone wanted a 1911 refinished, Ed would ask them if they wanted it black, gray or gray-green like the WW2 pistols. He once told me that the greenish appearance of the military issue pistols was created by the preservative grease they were shipped in. He could duplicate that finish by doing a normal gray Parkerizing job and then spraying Break-Free on the pistol parts and baking them in a toaster-oven for a few hours.

Ed was very conscious of the historical value of 1911 and 1911A1 pistols from the World Wars. He did everything possible to talk people out of modifying originals and would refuse the work if they insisted.

John Sabato · 10-29-2002, 09:43 AM

What a neat bit of history Doubs!

Here is a really nice looking and complete phosphate finished byf 42 Portugese rig that Bob Adams has for sale... His URL is on the Links & Resources page of this site...

Bob Adams does not mind posting photographs from his web pages as long as he is credited for the photo...

Doubs · 10-29-2002, 11:04 PM

John, thanks for the picture from Bob Adams. I have his page bookmarked and have drooled over that rig more than once. Now, just when I'd about gotten over it......... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Greg G · 10-30-2002, 09:41 AM

Bob Adams has had that Luger rig for sale for quite a while now. Is his price of $1295 just way too high for this rig? I have admired it, too. I would like to have it if I could get it for less money so that may be an answer to my own question.

Edward Tinker · 10-30-2002, 09:56 AM

With a complete rig, the price seems reasonable to me?

I mean, if you say:

$50 for the loading tool
$150 for the holster
$50 for the cleaning rod

That leaves around $1045 for the Luger and I imagine the hoslter and other items is worth a 100 to 200 more than my WAG [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Dwight Gruber · 10-30-2002, 10:03 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
$50 for the loading tool
$150 for the holster
$50 for the cleaning rod
<hr></blockquote>

$150 each for the mags. $150 for the grips. From this view it seems like the Luger is in pretty nice shape. Allofasudden it seems like maybe this is actually a pretty good deal.

--Dwight

Frank · 10-30-2002, 12:50 PM

Hey Guys, just make sure it's matching. I bought one about a year ago and the hold open was from another Luger!!! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

Doubs · 10-30-2002, 01:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Frank:
Hey Guys, just make sure it's matching. I bought one about a year ago and the hold open was from another Luger!!! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Good point, Frank. IF I had the money and was serious about purchasing the pistol, I'd be in contact with Mr. Adams with two concerns. One, that all numbered parts match and two, I'd want to see just as nice a picture of the left side of the pistol. The "hump" on the sideplate always seems to have more wear than most other parts from riding in a holster and I'd want to see the extent of that wear. Assumming no unreasonable wear and matching numbers, I'd say the price isn't out of reason at all.

10-27-2002, 01:36 PM	#1
Marc User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Parkerized" BYF Hello, Just seen this "parkerized" Luger for sale. parkerized 1942 BYF Is this legit? [img]confused.gif[/img] I just find it interesting that they advertise quote "the only Luger ever produced with a parkerized finish" unquote. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] What's a parkerized finish anyway? Thanks for your input. Marc <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

10-27-2002, 09:36 PM	#6
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	As most already know, many late Mauser P.38s were phosphate finished. The German light gray was always my favorite, the dual tones are nice (blued barrels, phosphate slide and frame) Lonnie has got my (previously my) nice minty Dual tone. Marvin has some nice ones as does my buddy Bill Stanley. The phosphate finish is tough and much harder to remove than regular salt bluing. A functional finish for a pistol that might see hard use. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-28-2002, 12:55 AM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>I had a broomhandle with a phosphate finish. It was done by an armorer buddy on one of those 80s Chinese imports. Looked good, shot low left though. Probably sold somewhere as the only Mauser 96 with a parkerized finish. rk</strong><hr></blockquote> Someone was taken then because I had one parkerized (mil-spec) a few years back AND it had a Mauser rifle front sight base and blade too. It shot as good as it looked.

10-28-2002, 07:24 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Alain, Most of the 42BYFs in the m &n suffix range, that went to Portugal, will have the phosphate finish and British proofs. I some how doubt that this way the original 1942 Mauser finish, since Mauser didn't start using it on P38s until 1944, but I stand to be corrected. Any original blued M or N range 42 BYFs out there with E/135 proofs? Quite often the Portugese contract PO8s will be equipted with their replacement "Black Widow" grips, which have courser checkering and wider boarder, than the WW2 German ones. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-28-2002, 08:59 PM	#11
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Johnny Peppers; U.S. carbines (yes, I know some carbines were blued) and rifles were Parkerized/phosphated through the M-14. Many parts on M-16s, including barrels, are still manganese phosphated. This process will probably be in use by the U.S. military for many more years. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-27-2002, 02:02 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	These were produced by Mauser under contract to Portugal. A parkerized finish is a matte, non-reflective finish that is produced by an acidic (?) process that etches the surface metal and imparts an extremely durable surface that is easily protected with oil-based lubricants as the porosity of the finish alows the oil to penetrate the skin surface,IIRC. Parkerization was used on US military firearms almost exclusively starting about 1935 or so. It varies somewhat in color from flat gray to a slight olive cast based on what type of oil/lubricant was initially used to temper and cure the finish. I maynot be absolutely right on the nature of the process as I am no metalurgist, but I think I have it basically right. FWIW, I have always thought that a parked Luger was a pretty good idea for military applications. Tom A

10-27-2002, 03:29 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The Luger may have had a phosphate finish, but certainly not a Parkerized finish. Parkerize is the trade name for a phosphate finish developed by the Parker Rustproof Co. of Detroit, Michigan. The U.S. started applying a phosphate finish to the Model 1903 Rifle in 1918 and used it on virtually all weapons in WWII. The Model 1911A1 was one of the last weapons to have a phosphate finish, as Colt changed from an oven blued finish to the phosphate finish in mid 1941. Basically there are two different types of phosphate finish, manganese and zinc, which accounts for a difference in color of the finish. The color is also affected by the type and hardness of the steel it is applied to.

10-27-2002, 07:10 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	I read recently (but cannot now find the reference) that the Finns "parkerized" some of their P-08s during re-work. I have seen two examples, both with the characteristic Finnish front sights and one with the SA stamp. --Dwight

10-27-2002, 08:50 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	I had a broomhandle with a phosphate finish. It was done by an armorer buddy on one of those 80s Chinese imports. Looked good, shot low left though. Probably sold somewhere as the only Mauser 96 with a parkerized finish. rk

10-28-2002, 01:49 AM	#8
Marc User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you everyone for the reply. My "Luger Knowledge" is growing every time I visit this site. Again, thanks to all of you for the info. Marc <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

10-28-2002, 05:11 AM	#9
Alain Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: france Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I definitely have to raise the flag here. The French Army used parkerized Po8's which also had a five pointed star struck on them. These Po8's were mainly used in Indochina and a little bit in Algeria. They were also used by the Gendarmerie. A bientÃ?Â´t, Alain

10-28-2002, 10:01 PM	#12
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	Off topic a bit but a true story. The late Ed Banks was one of the best 1911 pistolsmiths in the country and a good friend until his untimely death. He was retired Air Force and worked Civil Service at Robins AFB, GA, until he retired a second time. He once told me that his Parkerized finish on the 1911's he worked on was called to the attention of the people responsible for the Navy's arms. The Navy formally contacted him and wanted to know his "secret". He referred them to a military manual that listed GI specs for phosphate finishing. (His job at Robins AFB required him to work with the Navy on a regular basis so he was quite familiar with Navy Regs as well as AF Regs.) When someone wanted a 1911 refinished, Ed would ask them if they wanted it black, gray or gray-green like the WW2 pistols. He once told me that the greenish appearance of the military issue pistols was created by the preservative grease they were shipped in. He could duplicate that finish by doing a normal gray Parkerizing job and then spraying Break-Free on the pistol parts and baking them in a toaster-oven for a few hours. Ed was very conscious of the historical value of 1911 and 1911A1 pistols from the World Wars. He did everything possible to talk people out of modifying originals and would refuse the work if they insisted.

10-29-2002, 09:43 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	What a neat bit of history Doubs! Here is a really nice looking and complete phosphate finished byf 42 Portugese rig that Bob Adams has for sale... His URL is on the Links & Resources page of this site... Bob Adams does not mind posting photographs from his web pages as long as he is credited for the photo... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-29-2002, 11:04 PM	#14
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	John, thanks for the picture from Bob Adams. I have his page bookmarked and have drooled over that rig more than once. Now, just when I'd about gotten over it......... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

10-30-2002, 09:41 AM	#15
Greg G User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TX Posts: 65 Thanks: 15 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Bob Adams has had that Luger rig for sale for quite a while now. Is his price of $1295 just way too high for this rig? I have admired it, too. I would like to have it if I could get it for less money so that may be an answer to my own question.

10-30-2002, 09:56 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	With a complete rig, the price seems reasonable to me? I mean, if you say: $50 for the loading tool $150 for the holster $50 for the cleaning rod That leaves around $1045 for the Luger and I imagine the hoslter and other items is worth a 100 to 200 more than my WAG [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-30-2002, 10:03 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>$50 for the loading tool $150 for the holster $50 for the cleaning rod </strong><hr></blockquote> $150 each for the mags. $150 for the grips. From this view it seems like the Luger is in pretty nice shape. Allofasudden it seems like maybe this is actually a pretty good deal. --Dwight

10-30-2002, 12:50 PM	#18
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hey Guys, just make sure it's matching. I bought one about a year ago and the hold open was from another Luger!!! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

10-30-2002, 01:53 PM	#19
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Frank: <strong>Hey Guys, just make sure it's matching. I bought one about a year ago and the hold open was from another Luger!!! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Good point, Frank. IF I had the money and was serious about purchasing the pistol, I'd be in contact with Mr. Adams with two concerns. One, that all numbered parts match and two, I'd want to see just as nice a picture of the left side of the pistol. The "hump" on the sideplate always seems to have more wear than most other parts from riding in a holster and I'd want to see the extent of that wear. Assumming no unreasonable wear and matching numbers, I'd say the price isn't out of reason at all.