Questions to Ron Wood - Hold open catch

Darth 44 · 12-08-2004, 10:37 AM

Hi !
Ron, in the thread "Navy mags" (Navy Lugers forum) you wrote:
"Presumably as a cost cutting measures, the Army elected to eliminate the stock lug that the Navy had adapted, the grip safety, and the hold open.
Until the LP08 came along, there was no need for the stock lug, so that was a logical choice for elimination. The grip safety was actually redundant (cavalry troops might argue to the contrary) so it too met a well-deserved demise as a military necessity. However, not knowing when your weapon was empty in a heated disagreement proved to be an embarassment of significant proportion. So in 1913 sanity reared its head and the hold open was once again recognized for its vital role and returned to its rightful place in the military Luger,where it remained to the end."

So, am I correct assuming that after 1913 there were two variants of the P08 in use?
The older variant without the hold open (let`s call it pre-`13)and the then new post-`13? If so, have the pre-`13 P08s been successively upgraded by manufacturer/s to the post-`13 hold open standard,or such a rebuild was/is impossible and all hold open equipped P08 Lugers had to be built from scratch?

Regards.

John Sabato · 12-08-2004, 12:00 PM

Most Pre-'13 Army Lugers were successfully reworked for the holdopen... but some Army Lugers did escape the modification, as did many Commercial Lugers.

Those that have been reworked, can be distinguished from the type that were manufactured with a holdopen device by the very small pin that is inserted from the right side to secure the holdopen in place... The pin is located along the edge of the upper grip frame rail.

George Anderson · 12-08-2004, 03:06 PM

Indications are that none of the Bavarian P08s made it back to be refitted with the holdopen due to the outbreak of hostilities. It would also seem that some of the private purchase (officer weapons) did not get modified.

Ron Wood · 12-08-2004, 09:24 PM

Darth,
John and George have stepped in during my absence and provided you with excellent info. Two things I might add:
The modification to add the holdopen was performed by the government arsenal at Erfurt and a tiny "proof" or inspectors mark was placed in the frame next to the small pin.
George is correct that pre-1913 Bavarian Lugers are not modified, but I think it can be attributed more to the Bavarian disregard for Prussian directives (to perform the modification) than the outbreak of hostilities.

Darth 44 · 12-12-2004, 12:03 PM

This is exactly what I wanted to know.
Thanks for the replies,gentlemen

Good shooting.

RKBA

12-08-2004, 10:37 AM	#1
Darth 44 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Questions to Ron Wood - Hold open catch Hi ! Ron, in the thread "Navy mags" (Navy Lugers forum) you wrote: "Presumably as a cost cutting measures, the Army elected to eliminate the stock lug that the Navy had adapted, the grip safety, and the hold open. Until the LP08 came along, there was no need for the stock lug, so that was a logical choice for elimination. The grip safety was actually redundant (cavalry troops might argue to the contrary) so it too met a well-deserved demise as a military necessity. However, not knowing when your weapon was empty in a heated disagreement proved to be an embarassment of significant proportion. So in 1913 sanity reared its head and the hold open was once again recognized for its vital role and returned to its rightful place in the military Luger,where it remained to the end." So, am I correct assuming that after 1913 there were two variants of the P08 in use? The older variant without the hold open (let`s call it pre-`13)and the then new post-`13? If so, have the pre-`13 P08s been successively upgraded by manufacturer/s to the post-`13 hold open standard,or such a rebuild was/is impossible and all hold open equipped P08 Lugers had to be built from scratch? Regards. __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed-unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" James Madison, The Federalist Papers

12-08-2004, 12:00 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Most Pre-'13 Army Lugers were successfully reworked for the holdopen... but some Army Lugers did escape the modification, as did many Commercial Lugers. Those that have been reworked, can be distinguished from the type that were manufactured with a holdopen device by the very small pin that is inserted from the right side to secure the holdopen in place... The pin is located along the edge of the upper grip frame rail. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-08-2004, 09:24 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	Darth, John and George have stepped in during my absence and provided you with excellent info. Two things I might add: The modification to add the holdopen was performed by the government arsenal at Erfurt and a tiny "proof" or inspectors mark was placed in the frame next to the small pin. George is correct that pre-1913 Bavarian Lugers are not modified, but I think it can be attributed more to the Bavarian disregard for Prussian directives (to perform the modification) than the outbreak of hostilities. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-12-2004, 12:03 PM	#5
Darth 44 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks for the replies,gentlemen Good shooting. RKBA __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed-unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" James Madison, The Federalist Papers

12-08-2004, 03:06 PM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	Indications are that none of the Bavarian P08s made it back to be refitted with the holdopen due to the outbreak of hostilities. It would also seem that some of the private purchase (officer weapons) did not get modified.