41 Luger Find

gvt1911 · 11-26-2016, 03:07 PM

Hope this is in the right spot on the forum. Recently had neighbor's brother in law pass on. He was a WWII Veteran and his wife needed to sell off some items he brought back from Germany.
I purchased 2 items from the estate. One is a 1941 Luger , all matching including the magazine and the other is a Nazi dagger.
I do not know much about these, I just have a Luger shooter and that's about all. If anyone can advise what I have, I would appreciate it. The condition of the Luger is not as nice as I would like it to be, but we can't change that. The Dagger is nice as is and appeals to me. I hope the pictures come thru.
TIA,
Joe in SW Va.

gvt1911 · 11-26-2016, 03:12 PM

Story has it that the "spotting" was caused by the blood of the German soldier...??? Well here are pics of the Dagger...

Edward Tinker · 11-26-2016, 03:23 PM

I never believe the blood spotting theories ie instant blue loss. Some folks insist they are true and others say that they have tested assorted blued items with real blood and nothing happened they said. What is most likely is that it got wet (blood, rain, snow) and sat in a holster or backpack for weeks, not wiped down like the guns they depended on. if it happened after the war, same thing, neglect.

I see a matching, byf (Mauser) made in 1941 Luger with a matching magazine. Unless you paid too much, the matching mag makes up for some of the bluing issues.

ed

DonVoigt · 11-26-2016, 03:52 PM

Knowing the back story is always "nice".

But blood pitting is usually used to explain poor care/storage as Ed said; and it really makes No difference how the pistol reached that condition in regard to its value or sale-ability. JMHO.

gvt1911 · 11-26-2016, 04:02 PM

Thanks for the info on the blood theory, I thought as much...One fellow told me it was a Black widow Luger...??I do not know, I was glad to help the widow out, I gave more than the other offers for the 2 items..

CAP Black · 11-26-2016, 07:40 PM

Apparently you do have a "black widow," as they are called. About the blood issue: I have a Luger (1936) that has what was told to me, by veteran's family, as German soldier's blood. It has bluing gone in areas that relate to gripping with either hand, in normal fashion. It isn't rusted. The bluing is just "cleaned" off. The substance was in place when I got the pistol from the family. When I wiped the gun with an oily rag that dried, flaky bluing came lose - cleanly. The matter that caused the bluing to pull lose could have been anything, as far as I know. The pattern on the gun of where a hand would grip the item (on both sides) seems logically to relate to blood. I accept it that way. Others can believe what they wish.
Enjoy your valuable asset and treat it with TLC and preserve it for the next generation.
Thanks
Jack

wayne8661 · 11-26-2016, 11:40 PM

Nice finds! The byf is nice but I really like the niederheiden grip marked SA dagger.

W

MikeP · 11-27-2016, 06:54 PM

Years ago while moving I had a really nice modern Highpower in a case.
I thought I had forgotten it in the load I had I had brought.
Anyway after about 2 days I found it in a plastic tub in my trailer under a foot of water.
I wasn't worried, but when I tok it out, big random patches of blue were completely gone.
Right down to bare metal. Some combination of the water and that case ate right in to it.
No pits, just no blue.
I have always thought the blood pitting was baloney.
I saw some pics of a really ate up Tok that a guy claimed to find under a rotted NVA body that had been exposed to the decay and corruption. That was somewhat convincing.
70 plus years is a long time for some things.
Lots can happen. Always laugh at the "been there look" comments.

Olle · 11-27-2016, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeP

Always laugh at the "been there look" comments.

You just have to look at how pistols are normally used. A pistol is a sidearm and spends most of its service life in a holster, so it won't get dinged up nearly as much as a rifle. If I had to guess, most of the "battle wear" and "blood stains" you find on old guns are actually a result of post war Bubba abuse. It doesn't matter if a gun made it through WWII without a scratch, Bubba can make it look like it has been in Normandie, Stalingrad and Bastogne, all at the same time. So guns like that have "been there" in a way, it's just a matter of where.

DonVoigt · 11-28-2016, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

Apparently you do have a "black widow," as they are called. About the blood issue: I have a Luger (1936) that has what was told to me, by veteran's family, as German soldier's blood. It has bluing gone in areas that relate to gripping with either hand, in normal fashion. It isn't rusted. The bluing is just "cleaned" off. The substance was in place when I got the pistol from the family. When I wiped the gun with an oily rag that dried, flaky bluing came lose - cleanly. The matter that caused the bluing to pull lose could have been anything, as far as I know. The pattern on the gun of where a hand would grip the item (on both sides) seems logically to relate to blood. I accept it that way. Others can believe what they wish.
Enjoy your valuable asset and treat it with TLC and preserve it for the next generation.
Thanks
Jack

Of course one can believe what they wish, and promulgate the story- some are no doubt true.

My basic point was/is that the "why" an object is pitted or lacks blue just does not matter with respect to its desirability or value- JMHO>

Lugerdoc · 11-28-2016, 12:27 PM

CAP. i usually feel that the cost of a restoration is not usually justified for most common military PO8s, but yours may be the exception. If it is in fact all matching parts with an exc bore, nice orig black widow grips and matching mag, you may want to forward the above photos to Ted Green at Thor380@aol.com for a quote. TH

rhuff · 11-28-2016, 01:44 PM

I agree with Tom on possibly restoring this all matching '41 Mauser. I believe that is what I would do.

kurusu · 11-28-2016, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

You just have to look at how pistols are normally used. A pistol is a sidearm and spends most of its service life in a holster, so it won't get dinged up nearly as much as a rifle. If I had to guess, most of the "battle wear" and "blood stains" you find on old guns are actually a result of post war Bubba abuse. It doesn't matter if a gun made it through WWII without a scratch, Bubba can make it look like it has been in Normandie, Stalingrad and Bastogne, all at the same time. So guns like that have "been there" in a way, it's just a matter of where.

The Germans made unusual(as war tools) heavy use of pistols in both World Wars.

gvt1911 · 11-28-2016, 10:15 PM

I am correct to understand that I may want to have this Luger restored...??? Please advise further...
Thanks,
Joe

sheepherder · 11-28-2016, 10:29 PM

As to blood destroying bluing...I have no clue...

But a few years back, I wanted to 'age' a new barrel that I had fabricated and screwed into my C96 Mauser barrel extension...I asked here what was a way to make steel acquire the 'patina' of 90 years...George Anderson replied that I should soak the part in urine...

I wasn't sure if old George was messing with my mind...but it took a couple days to fill a liter Coke bottle anyway...So I tried it...

And to my utter amazement, it turned the bare steel a dark black-ish color...It now sits on my infamous 'Red Five' C96, and most people have no idea it isn't a result of natural oxidation...

I've heard that this is also the treatment that Japanese swordmakers use to heat-treat steel blades...

Now, I don't know if urine has the same effect as blood on bluing, but I would no longer be surprised if it did...

(Before & after, finished barrel [bottom two] straight from the Coke bottle...)

11-26-2016, 03:07 PM	#1
gvt1911 User Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Mountains of SW Va. Posts: 59 Thanks: 59 Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts	41 Luger Find Hope this is in the right spot on the forum. Recently had neighbor's brother in law pass on. He was a WWII Veteran and his wife needed to sell off some items he brought back from Germany. I purchased 2 items from the estate. One is a 1941 Luger , all matching including the magazine and the other is a Nazi dagger. I do not know much about these, I just have a Luger shooter and that's about all. If anyone can advise what I have, I would appreciate it. The condition of the Luger is not as nice as I would like it to be, but we can't change that. The Dagger is nice as is and appeals to me. I hope the pictures come thru. TIA, Joe in SW Va. Attached Thumbnails

11-26-2016, 03:12 PM	#2
gvt1911 User Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Mountains of SW Va. Posts: 59 Thanks: 59 Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts	Story has it that the "spotting" was caused by the blood of the German soldier...??? Well here are pics of the Dagger... Attached Thumbnails

11-26-2016, 03:23 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I never believe the blood spotting theories ie instant blue loss. Some folks insist they are true and others say that they have tested assorted blued items with real blood and nothing happened they said. What is most likely is that it got wet (blood, rain, snow) and sat in a holster or backpack for weeks, not wiped down like the guns they depended on. if it happened after the war, same thing, neglect. I see a matching, byf (Mauser) made in 1941 Luger with a matching magazine. Unless you paid too much, the matching mag makes up for some of the bluing issues. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-26-2016, 03:52 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Knowing the back story is always "nice". But blood pitting is usually used to explain poor care/storage as Ed said; and it really makes No difference how the pistol reached that condition in regard to its value or sale-ability. JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

11-28-2016, 12:27 PM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	CAP. i usually feel that the cost of a restoration is not usually justified for most common military PO8s, but yours may be the exception. If it is in fact all matching parts with an exc bore, nice orig black widow grips and matching mag, you may want to forward the above photos to Ted Green at Thor380@aol.com for a quote. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-26-2016, 04:02 PM	#5
gvt1911 User Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Mountains of SW Va. Posts: 59 Thanks: 59 Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts	Thanks for the info on the blood theory, I thought as much...One fellow told me it was a Black widow Luger...??I do not know, I was glad to help the widow out, I gave more than the other offers for the 2 items..

11-26-2016, 07:40 PM	#6
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Apparently you do have a "black widow," as they are called. About the blood issue: I have a Luger (1936) that has what was told to me, by veteran's family, as German soldier's blood. It has bluing gone in areas that relate to gripping with either hand, in normal fashion. It isn't rusted. The bluing is just "cleaned" off. The substance was in place when I got the pistol from the family. When I wiped the gun with an oily rag that dried, flaky bluing came lose - cleanly. The matter that caused the bluing to pull lose could have been anything, as far as I know. The pattern on the gun of where a hand would grip the item (on both sides) seems logically to relate to blood. I accept it that way. Others can believe what they wish. Enjoy your valuable asset and treat it with TLC and preserve it for the next generation. Thanks Jack

11-26-2016, 11:40 PM	#7
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Nice finds! The byf is nice but I really like the niederheiden grip marked SA dagger. W

11-27-2016, 06:54 PM	#8
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Years ago while moving I had a really nice modern Highpower in a case. I thought I had forgotten it in the load I had I had brought. Anyway after about 2 days I found it in a plastic tub in my trailer under a foot of water. I wasn't worried, but when I tok it out, big random patches of blue were completely gone. Right down to bare metal. Some combination of the water and that case ate right in to it. No pits, just no blue. I have always thought the blood pitting was baloney. I saw some pics of a really ate up Tok that a guy claimed to find under a rotted NVA body that had been exposed to the decay and corruption. That was somewhat convincing. 70 plus years is a long time for some things. Lots can happen. Always laugh at the "been there look" comments.

11-28-2016, 01:44 PM	#12
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,274 Thanks: 2,695 Thanked 961 Times in 707 Posts	I agree with Tom on possibly restoring this all matching '41 Mauser. I believe that is what I would do.

11-28-2016, 10:15 PM	#14
gvt1911 User Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Mountains of SW Va. Posts: 59 Thanks: 59 Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts	I am correct to understand that I may want to have this Luger restored...??? Please advise further... Thanks, Joe

11-28-2016, 10:29 PM	#15
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	As to blood destroying bluing...I have no clue... But a few years back, I wanted to 'age' a new barrel that I had fabricated and screwed into my C96 Mauser barrel extension...I asked here what was a way to make steel acquire the 'patina' of 90 years...George Anderson replied that I should soak the part in urine... I wasn't sure if old George was messing with my mind...but it took a couple days to fill a liter Coke bottle anyway...So I tried it... And to my utter amazement, it turned the bare steel a dark black-ish color...It now sits on my infamous 'Red Five' C96, and most people have no idea it isn't a result of natural oxidation... I've heard that this is also the treatment that Japanese swordmakers use to heat-treat steel blades... Now, I don't know if urine has the same effect as blood on bluing, but I would no longer be surprised if it did... (Before & after, finished barrel [bottom two] straight from the Coke bottle...) Attached Images __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...