The "other" test .45

trigger643 · 12-03-2003, 07:29 PM

I was in the Norton Gallery today, taking a break. It was nearly empty. I was admiring the collection in the gun room. The curator came in and we talked. He pointed to #3, during the course of our general conversation and said "to some that one is worth a million dollars. There are only 2 in the world and we recently acquired the other one but have no room to display it at this time." I was out of time and had to get to my next appointment. I asked him if it was #2, the one I'd heard was in California. He stated it was #2. Interesting lunch break at any rate...

Imperial Arms · 12-04-2003, 03:24 AM

What an interesting piece of information. I wonder how much the museum paid for serial #2 if it happens to be the 'real deal'? With some of the Krause .45 Lugers floating around on the market which are near perfect to the original, who knows what they could have bought if it came out of California?

Maybe time will tell.

Albert

Pete Ebbink · 12-13-2003, 03:12 PM

This might just be gossip but...I heard earlier this year that the present (or now the previous ...) owner of the old Sid Aberman luger # 2 in .45 cal. needed some fast cash for pressing legal matters and the gun was being offered for around $ 400K to $ 500K...

I have no documentation to back up this "gossip"...just gun show talk...

If this was true, maybe the Norton Gallery folks got a true bargin !!!

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

R.W. NORTON ART GALLERY · 04-03-2004, 06:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by trigger643:
I was in the Norton Gallery today, taking a break. It was nearly empty. I was admiring the collection in the gun room. The curator came in and we talked. He pointed to #3, during the course of our general conversation and said "to some that one is worth a million dollars. There are only 2 in the world and we recently acquired the other one but have no room to display it at this time." I was out of time and had to get to my next appointment. I asked him if it was #2, the one I'd heard was in California. He stated it was #2. Interesting lunch break at any rate...<hr /></blockquote>I have been here at the Norton Art Gallery for over 40 years and have done curatorial work on all of our art collections in addition to the firearms collection.

I'm not sure who the gentleman spoke with concerning our Luger 45.APC pistol, but to set the record straight, we DO NOT own #2 or any other Luger 45.cal pistol except the one marked 3 on the magazine which is on permanent display in our firearms gallery.

Sieger · 04-03-2004, 06:59 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
This might just be gossip but...I heard earlier this year that the present (or now the previous ...) owner of the old Sid Aberman luger # 2 in .45 cal. needed some fast cash for pressing legal matters and the gun was being offered for around $ 400K to $ 500K...

I have no documentation to back up this "gossip"...just gun show talk...

If this was true, maybe the Norton Gallery folks got a true bargin !!!

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Pete:

If this were true, he should have put it up for auction, as I am sure he could have sold it for an amount well in excess of $500,000. I'm also sure that more than one of our own members could have paid him that for it.

Sieger

Heinz · 04-03-2004, 07:29 PM

Jerry Bloomer, Thank you so much for your post. The truth is always useful

Johnny C. Kitchens · 04-04-2004, 01:58 AM

Is the .45 at the Norton Gallery the real thing, or has anyone had a chance to document it in anyway??? Does it look like #2???

Pete Ebbink · 04-13-2004, 01:41 PM

Well...this thread has me really a bit stumped. Both Glen and our new member from the Norton Gallery making seemingly truthful postings...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Michael Zeleny · 04-28-2004, 12:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
This might just be gossip but...I heard earlier this year that the present (or now the previous ...) owner of the old Sid Aberman luger # 2 in .45 cal. needed some fast cash for pressing legal matters and the gun was being offered for around $ 400K to $ 500K...<hr /></blockquote>Michael Zomber was cited as the owner of the aforementioned eponymous item by Garry James in his article "We Shoot the Million $$ Luger," Guns & Ammo Magazine 30 (1994)

"The rarity and historical importance of this pistol to collectors makes it literally priceless." Charles Kenyon, Jr., Lugers at Random.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Tenn. Antique Firearms Expert Convicted of Fraud

December 15, 2003

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- An antique weapons expert from Tennessee was convicted Monday in a fraud case in Philadelphia.

Michael Zomber of Franklin was convicted for his role in conspiring to inflate the prices of two historic pistols that he and another man sold to a wealthy collector.

Zomber was found guilty of conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud. He faces up to five years in prison under sentencing guidelines.

Prosecutors said Zomber and Richard Ellis deceived a Pennsylvania collector into thinking that he was in a bidding war for two pistols once owned by a Texas Rangers captain.

The guns, a pair of .44-caliber Colt revolvers, ultimately sold for more than $2 million, a price that prosecutors say was vastly inflated.<hr /></blockquote>http://www.visier.de/1647.html
http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=1566211
http://www.tnonline.com/archives/new...01.24/gun.html
http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawr...4/docatxt.html

John Sabato · 04-28-2004, 11:14 AM

Michael,

A very interesting series of articles... has anyone followed up on the status of the case?

Michael Zeleny · 04-28-2004, 01:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Sabato:
Michael,

A very interesting series of articles... has anyone followed up on the status of the case?<hr /></blockquote>I don't know whether Zomber got sentenced yet. I used to buy nihonto stuff from his former partner Joe Bell. I never bought anything from Michael, but let's just say this turn of event comes as no surprise. As his lawyer said, I have no trouble accepting that "a very sophisticated trader" could not be fooled and was not fooled by anything he did.

MauserLugers · 04-28-2004, 08:28 PM

Johnny Peppers discussed and explained these 45 Lugers a couple of times here on the forum, so if you go back and find his posts you will have a real good idea of what is what and where each of the 45's came from. -- Bill

Edward Tinker · 04-28-2004, 11:15 PM

NEW pictures (old pictures, taken a long time ago) by Harry Jones have been posted in the General Section and so there is an expanded section on the 45 Lugers.

Ed

trigger643 · 05-11-2004, 01:33 AM

sorry for the late response, but I have been in the process of moving back to Colorado. The person I spoke with was slinder, about 45 to 50. Dirty blonde hair greying. I did not catch his name if it was ever offered. He came into the gun room while I was still there and our conversation lead out and to the glassed hall connecting that building to the main building. He also stated that the reason they were nolonger rotating the gun collection was that the woman how had made the plexiglass stands for the pistols was no longer available to make new ones. Now that I think about it, perhaps in my haste to make my next appointment, I took him at face value.

Big Norm · 05-13-2004, 09:27 PM

Is this the most expensive Luger in the world (outside the recent RIA sale)? I saw a program on the History channel that said that a Colt revolver with all sorts of gold inlays was valued at $5 mill. The program had a lot of pistols in the $2.5 mill range. With that in mind, it seems like this .45 cal luger should be worth more that a measly four hundred grand. Heck, for $400,000 Tom A would buy it.(HEE! HEE!). Actually, I read someplace that the selling price was closer to $800,000.

John Sabato, I think that the above mentioned article in 'Guns and Ammo' magazine is the article that I mailed to you some time ago.
Big Norm

Navy · 05-13-2004, 09:41 PM

Norm,

I have all the .45 ACP pistols I want, thank you very much.

Tom A.

Danny R. Bowles · 06-05-2004, 09:16 PM

how about the 45 carbine that ralph in arizona has at one mill? its supposed to be gl proofed.

Pete Ebbink · 06-06-2004, 01:46 PM

Danny,

If you go to Ralph's WOL web site, you will see a hot link to the .45 cal luger carbine and many detailed photos...including the "GL" hallmark...

http://www.worldoflugers.com/index.htm

This weapon is quite controversial and many a heated discussion has occurred here on the LF in the past...some have been fortunate to see and hold this pistol in person over the past couple of years...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-03-2003, 07:29 PM	#1
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The "other" test .45 I was in the Norton Gallery today, taking a break. It was nearly empty. I was admiring the collection in the gun room. The curator came in and we talked. He pointed to #3, during the course of our general conversation and said "to some that one is worth a million dollars. There are only 2 in the world and we recently acquired the other one but have no room to display it at this time." I was out of time and had to get to my next appointment. I asked him if it was #2, the one I'd heard was in California. He stated it was #2. Interesting lunch break at any rate... __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

04-03-2004, 06:05 PM	#4
R.W. NORTON ART GALLERY New User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Shreveport, LA. Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by trigger643: <strong>I was in the Norton Gallery today, taking a break. It was nearly empty. I was admiring the collection in the gun room. The curator came in and we talked. He pointed to #3, during the course of our general conversation and said "to some that one is worth a million dollars. There are only 2 in the world and we recently acquired the other one but have no room to display it at this time." I was out of time and had to get to my next appointment. I asked him if it was #2, the one I'd heard was in California. He stated it was #2. Interesting lunch break at any rate...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have been here at the Norton Art Gallery for over 40 years and have done curatorial work on all of our art collections in addition to the firearms collection. I'm not sure who the gentleman spoke with concerning our Luger 45.APC pistol, but to set the record straight, we DO NOT own #2 or any other Luger 45.cal pistol except the one marked 3 on the magazine which is on permanent display in our firearms gallery. __________________ Jerry Bloomer

04-03-2004, 06:59 PM	#5
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink: <strong>This might just be gossip but...I heard earlier this year that the present (or now the previous ...) owner of the old Sid Aberman luger # 2 in .45 cal. needed some fast cash for pressing legal matters and the gun was being offered for around $ 400K to $ 500K... I have no documentation to back up this "gossip"...just gun show talk... If this was true, maybe the Norton Gallery folks got a true bargin !!! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Pete: If this were true, he should have put it up for auction, as I am sure he could have sold it for an amount well in excess of $500,000. I'm also sure that more than one of our own members could have paid him that for it. Sieger

04-04-2004, 01:58 AM	#7
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Is the .45 at the Norton Gallery the real thing, or has anyone had a chance to document it in anyway??? Does it look like #2??? __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

04-28-2004, 12:40 AM	#9
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink: <strong>This might just be gossip but...I heard earlier this year that the present (or now the previous ...) owner of the old Sid Aberman luger # 2 in .45 cal. needed some fast cash for pressing legal matters and the gun was being offered for around $ 400K to $ 500K...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Michael Zomber was cited as the owner of the aforementioned eponymous item by Garry James in his article "We Shoot the Million $$ Luger," Guns & Ammo Magazine 30 (1994) "The rarity and historical importance of this pistol to collectors makes it literally priceless." Charles Kenyon, Jr., Lugers at Random. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Tenn. Antique Firearms Expert Convicted of Fraud December 15, 2003 PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- An antique weapons expert from Tennessee was convicted Monday in a fraud case in Philadelphia. Michael Zomber of Franklin was convicted for his role in conspiring to inflate the prices of two historic pistols that he and another man sold to a wealthy collector. Zomber was found guilty of conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud. He faces up to five years in prison under sentencing guidelines. Prosecutors said Zomber and Richard Ellis deceived a Pennsylvania collector into thinking that he was in a bidding war for two pistols once owned by a Texas Rangers captain. The guns, a pair of .44-caliber Colt revolvers, ultimately sold for more than $2 million, a price that prosecutors say was vastly inflated.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">http://www.visier.de/1647.html http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=1566211 http://www.tnonline.com/archives/new...01.24/gun.html http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawr...4/docatxt.html __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

12-04-2003, 03:24 AM	#2
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	What an interesting piece of information. I wonder how much the museum paid for serial #2 if it happens to be the 'real deal'? With some of the Krause .45 Lugers floating around on the market which are near perfect to the original, who knows what they could have bought if it came out of California? Maybe time will tell. Albert

12-13-2003, 03:12 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	This might just be gossip but...I heard earlier this year that the present (or now the previous ...) owner of the old Sid Aberman luger # 2 in .45 cal. needed some fast cash for pressing legal matters and the gun was being offered for around $ 400K to $ 500K... I have no documentation to back up this "gossip"...just gun show talk... If this was true, maybe the Norton Gallery folks got a true bargin !!! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

04-03-2004, 07:29 PM	#6
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Jerry Bloomer, Thank you so much for your post. The truth is always useful

04-13-2004, 01:41 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Well...this thread has me really a bit stumped. Both Glen and our new member from the Norton Gallery making seemingly truthful postings... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

04-28-2004, 11:14 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Michael, A very interesting series of articles... has anyone followed up on the status of the case? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-28-2004, 01:15 PM	#11
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato: <strong>Michael, A very interesting series of articles... has anyone followed up on the status of the case?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't know whether Zomber got sentenced yet. I used to buy nihonto stuff from his former partner Joe Bell. I never bought anything from Michael, but let's just say this turn of event comes as no surprise. As his lawyer said, I have no trouble accepting that "a very sophisticated trader" could not be fooled and was not fooled by anything he did. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

04-28-2004, 08:28 PM	#12
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Johnny Peppers discussed and explained these 45 Lugers a couple of times here on the forum, so if you go back and find his posts you will have a real good idea of what is what and where each of the 45's came from. -- Bill

04-28-2004, 11:15 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	NEW pictures (old pictures, taken a long time ago) by Harry Jones have been posted in the General Section and so there is an expanded section on the 45 Lugers. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-11-2004, 01:33 AM	#14
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	sorry for the late response, but I have been in the process of moving back to Colorado. The person I spoke with was slinder, about 45 to 50. Dirty blonde hair greying. I did not catch his name if it was ever offered. He came into the gun room while I was still there and our conversation lead out and to the glassed hall connecting that building to the main building. He also stated that the reason they were nolonger rotating the gun collection was that the woman how had made the plexiglass stands for the pistols was no longer available to make new ones. Now that I think about it, perhaps in my haste to make my next appointment, I took him at face value. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

05-13-2004, 09:27 PM	#15
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Is this the most expensive Luger in the world (outside the recent RIA sale)? I saw a program on the History channel that said that a Colt revolver with all sorts of gold inlays was valued at $5 mill. The program had a lot of pistols in the $2.5 mill range. With that in mind, it seems like this .45 cal luger should be worth more that a measly four hundred grand. Heck, for $400,000 Tom A would buy it.(HEE! HEE!). Actually, I read someplace that the selling price was closer to $800,000. John Sabato, I think that the above mentioned article in 'Guns and Ammo' magazine is the article that I mailed to you some time ago. Big Norm

05-13-2004, 09:41 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Norm, I have all the .45 ACP pistols I want, thank you very much. Tom A.

06-05-2004, 09:16 PM	#17
Danny R. Bowles User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern West Va Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	how about the 45 carbine that ralph in arizona has at one mill? its supposed to be gl proofed. __________________ drb

06-06-2004, 01:46 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Danny, If you go to Ralph's WOL web site, you will see a hot link to the .45 cal luger carbine and many detailed photos...including the "GL" hallmark... http://www.worldoflugers.com/index.htm This weapon is quite controversial and many a heated discussion has occurred here on the LF in the past...some have been fortunate to see and hold this pistol in person over the past couple of years... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />