Origins Of The Norton .45 Luger...?

Pete Ebbink · 02-21-2003, 05:50 AM

Can anyone fill in info. regarding the origins of the .45 luger pistol that is now in the Norton gallery.

From what I can gather from the H. Jones book and other info., I understand this pistol surfaced in the early 1960's and was taken out for a great day of shooting by the Jones family, and then eventually was sold (or transferred) to the Norton gallery folks.

Would appreciate more info., if possible, such as :

1. When (i.e. date) did this gun surface ?

2. Where was this gun located when it was rediscovered ? I assume H. Jones was responsible for its location...

3. What "trail of ownership" is known about this luger, prior to its rediscovery in the 1960's ?

4. Who owned it at the time it was rediscovered by H. Jones ?

5. Was/is there any documentation that has survived from DWM to place provenance on this pistol ?

6. What are the theories as to why this luger did not receive any serial numbers ?

7. The History Channel did a special on "Million Dollar Weapons" a few years back (I think in the late 1990's). The folks that put this documentary together excluded this Norton pistol as a surviving .45 luger; only giving credit to the old Abermann pistol # 2 as being a .45 luger survivor. Just wondering why...?

I am not intended to "stoke any flames" regarding this .45 pistol. Just trying to gather, objectively, what is know about this pistol...and to make me a little smarter...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Joe · 03-02-2003, 12:25 AM

Pete,

As a reminder, there were many good responses to your June 2002 inquiry about the Norton 45. Included below is that link for reference:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin...c;f=1;t=000009

The museum curator may have further details; below is a link with their contact information:

http://www.museumsusa.org/data/museums/LA/101231.htm

Hope this helps! I will plan a trip to Shreveport someday to see this legendary pistol first hand.

Pete Ebbink · 03-02-2003, 08:09 PM

Hello Joe,

I do recall the discussion from last summer.

I was hoping to find out if folks could provide more info. about this Norton .45 during its travels from Germany, prior to it landing in Canada in the 1960...when the Jones family purchased it.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 03-02-2003, 08:43 PM

I think Mike might know more than anybody else about the origins, although I seem to remember him saying that his Dad bought it from a guy in Canada, and they picked it up? But other than that, I don't think that Mike knows much? But if he does?

ed

Joe · 03-03-2003, 11:47 AM

Pete,

The .45 Luger has always been my favorite piece. But until I can find one (cheap) the 9mm '02 is a worthy substitute.

Have you seen the Norton pistol? I vaguely remember someone here last summer writing that Joe Schroeder handled the piece years ago. I see Joe frequently at the Ohio shows; I will talk to him about it in a couple of weeks (if he's at Wilmington) and share any findings.

Joe

trigger643 · 03-12-2003, 07:16 AM

I live just outside of Shreveport. I'll go over to the Norton Gallery today with my camera. If it's there, I'll take a picture to post this evening here.

trigger643 · 03-12-2003, 03:38 PM

I went to the Norton today, saw the .45 Luger and spoke to Jerry Bloomer concerning the pistol. Prior to Jones the Norton has no record of the provenance of this piece, though they remain certain it is one of the 1907 trials guns, probably a spare in case one of the two required by the board failed. The gun is on display, however cameras are forbidden without appointment.

Though the pistol is unnumbered, the GL monogram is on the back of the rear toggle linkage behind the rear sight (this and "loaded" stamped on the left side of the extractor are the only markings on the pistol). The number "3" is stamped on the bottom of the magazine and, accordingly, they refer to it as "#3" in their reference catalog.

They don't know why they were left out of the $1,mm gun program. They were never contacted.

Norton was an avid collector of firearms and only a fraction of his collection is on display at any one time. Today, in addition to the .45, there were 3 Borchardts, a 1902 carbine, 1920 Erfurt with an 18" barrel (mismatched side plate), a 1900 commercial with ideal holster and grips, a 1920 commercial period engraved, gold plated and set with ivory grips, a heavily engraved 1906 carbine, ser#31183 with gold inlays and "DR" entertwined and gold inlaid upon the chamber and a 1906 commercial, (2)artilleries cased and gold damascened, the ivory stocked and heavily engraved 1902 carbine by Prudhoome, and about 50 other firearms.

The most interesting Luger on display is discribed in the catalog: "Model 1920 DWM Two-Date Police - SER# 1544,[...] Made by DWM in 1916
This gun is dated 1920 over 1916 on top of the chamber and has the original magazine bearing ser. no. 1544. It has a non-standard iridescent purple finish with non-standard brown plastic grip plates." The finish reminds me of a home cold blue job that was interupted, the grips appear to be Kreighoff with no cut for the sear safety which isn't present and the original magazine has an aluminum bottom. Perhaps this is the first Luger Mr. Norton collected and learned from...

Edward Tinker · 03-12-2003, 03:43 PM

Thanks Glen, great to get a new first hand report!

Ed

ken d · 03-12-2003, 04:06 PM

Trigger643

My thanks too. Your personal report reconfirms my itch to go to the Norton gallery, not only to see the .45 Luger but all the others as well.

Regards

Ken D

trigger643 · 03-12-2003, 05:36 PM

I have lived here 5 years and hadn't been until today. I will certainly go back and recommend it as a must see and not as a firearms museum, but as a fine art museum. I thought the guns were well displayed for the most part, with only one or two tucked into corners or not well lit (the .45 Luger is not one of them). The first gun you pass as you enter the gallery is a Mauser 1878 revolver carbine and one of the last is a rather common Hammerli free pistol with custom grips. The art of E.C. Prudhomme is well represented. A good assortment of stocked pistols is represented, from C96s to Astras to Brownings and even a Colt Pre-woodsman and one of the experimental 1911 carbines that competed against and lost to the M1 carbine .30 calibre.

Pete Ebbink · 03-14-2003, 10:13 AM

Hello Glen,

1. Thanks so much for your first hand report of the Norton .45 and your trip to the Gallery. I also appreciate you reporting that the Norton Gallery folks were a bit disappointed in not being contacted by the "Million Dollar Guns" documentarty folks...

2. On another matter; you mentioned a 1920 Erfurt with 18" bbl. in the Gallery. Can you tell us more about this luger. As a luger beginner, I was thought to believe Erfurts were made up to 1918 only with their LP-08's made in 1914 (and a few questionably in 1915 and 1917...). What is the history of a 1920 Erfurt ?

Best Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 03-14-2003, 10:26 AM

Pete,

A quick guess would be that the 1920 Erfurt is Weimar property marked rather than date stamped, and rebarreled sometime after that.

--Dwight

trigger643 · 03-14-2003, 12:59 PM

The 1920 Erfurt is unmarked, ser#8727u. It is displayed with a commercial carbine stock, snail drum magazine and the associated loading tool. It has what appears to be standard type artillery sights, a swivel about halfway down the barrel (corresponding to the swivel on the stock). Other than the barrel length, it appears to be unremarkable.

About 10 years ago in North Carolina I saw a nearly identically barreled and stocked Erfurt and was told they were assembled for the commercial market from left over and/or reconditioned military parts and new barrels in the mid-1920's.

My readings are Erfurt stopped production in 1918. 1920 and 1921 marked Erfurts were stored production or reconditioned / reissued pieces for the Weirmar Republic.

02-21-2003, 05:50 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Origins Of The Norton .45 Luger...? Can anyone fill in info. regarding the origins of the .45 luger pistol that is now in the Norton gallery. From what I can gather from the H. Jones book and other info., I understand this pistol surfaced in the early 1960's and was taken out for a great day of shooting by the Jones family, and then eventually was sold (or transferred) to the Norton gallery folks. Would appreciate more info., if possible, such as : 1. When (i.e. date) did this gun surface ? 2. Where was this gun located when it was rediscovered ? I assume H. Jones was responsible for its location... 3. What "trail of ownership" is known about this luger, prior to its rediscovery in the 1960's ? 4. Who owned it at the time it was rediscovered by H. Jones ? 5. Was/is there any documentation that has survived from DWM to place provenance on this pistol ? 6. What are the theories as to why this luger did not receive any serial numbers ? 7. The History Channel did a special on "Million Dollar Weapons" a few years back (I think in the late 1990's). The folks that put this documentary together excluded this Norton pistol as a surviving .45 luger; only giving credit to the old Abermann pistol # 2 as being a .45 luger survivor. Just wondering why...? I am not intended to "stoke any flames" regarding this .45 pistol. Just trying to gather, objectively, what is know about this pistol...and to make me a little smarter... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-02-2003, 08:43 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I think Mike might know more than anybody else about the origins, although I seem to remember him saying that his Dad bought it from a guy in Canada, and they picked it up? But other than that, I don't think that Mike knows much? But if he does? ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-12-2003, 07:16 AM	#6
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I live just outside of Shreveport. I'll go over to the Norton Gallery today with my camera. If it's there, I'll take a picture to post this evening here. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

03-12-2003, 03:38 PM	#7
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I went to the Norton today, saw the .45 Luger and spoke to Jerry Bloomer concerning the pistol. Prior to Jones the Norton has no record of the provenance of this piece, though they remain certain it is one of the 1907 trials guns, probably a spare in case one of the two required by the board failed. The gun is on display, however cameras are forbidden without appointment. Though the pistol is unnumbered, the GL monogram is on the back of the rear toggle linkage behind the rear sight (this and "loaded" stamped on the left side of the extractor are the only markings on the pistol). The number "3" is stamped on the bottom of the magazine and, accordingly, they refer to it as "#3" in their reference catalog. They don't know why they were left out of the $1,mm gun program. They were never contacted. Norton was an avid collector of firearms and only a fraction of his collection is on display at any one time. Today, in addition to the .45, there were 3 Borchardts, a 1902 carbine, 1920 Erfurt with an 18" barrel (mismatched side plate), a 1900 commercial with ideal holster and grips, a 1920 commercial period engraved, gold plated and set with ivory grips, a heavily engraved 1906 carbine, ser#31183 with gold inlays and "DR" entertwined and gold inlaid upon the chamber and a 1906 commercial, (2)artilleries cased and gold damascened, the ivory stocked and heavily engraved 1902 carbine by Prudhoome, and about 50 other firearms. The most interesting Luger on display is discribed in the catalog: "Model 1920 DWM Two-Date Police - SER# 1544,[...] Made by DWM in 1916 This gun is dated 1920 over 1916 on top of the chamber and has the original magazine bearing ser. no. 1544. It has a non-standard iridescent purple finish with non-standard brown plastic grip plates." The finish reminds me of a home cold blue job that was interupted, the grips appear to be Kreighoff with no cut for the sear safety which isn't present and the original magazine has an aluminum bottom. Perhaps this is the first Luger Mr. Norton collected and learned from... __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

03-12-2003, 05:36 PM	#10
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I have lived here 5 years and hadn't been until today. I will certainly go back and recommend it as a must see and not as a firearms museum, but as a fine art museum. I thought the guns were well displayed for the most part, with only one or two tucked into corners or not well lit (the .45 Luger is not one of them). The first gun you pass as you enter the gallery is a Mauser 1878 revolver carbine and one of the last is a rather common Hammerli free pistol with custom grips. The art of E.C. Prudhomme is well represented. A good assortment of stocked pistols is represented, from C96s to Astras to Brownings and even a Colt Pre-woodsman and one of the experimental 1911 carbines that competed against and lost to the M1 carbine .30 calibre. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

03-02-2003, 12:25 AM	#2
Joe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 96 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, As a reminder, there were many good responses to your June 2002 inquiry about the Norton 45. Included below is that link for reference: http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin...c;f=1;t=000009 The museum curator may have further details; below is a link with their contact information: http://www.museumsusa.org/data/museums/LA/101231.htm Hope this helps! I will plan a trip to Shreveport someday to see this legendary pistol first hand.

03-02-2003, 08:09 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Joe, I do recall the discussion from last summer. I was hoping to find out if folks could provide more info. about this Norton .45 during its travels from Germany, prior to it landing in Canada in the 1960...when the Jones family purchased it. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-03-2003, 11:47 AM	#5
Joe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 96 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, The .45 Luger has always been my favorite piece. But until I can find one (cheap) the 9mm '02 is a worthy substitute. Have you seen the Norton pistol? I vaguely remember someone here last summer writing that Joe Schroeder handled the piece years ago. I see Joe frequently at the Ohio shows; I will talk to him about it in a couple of weeks (if he's at Wilmington) and share any findings. Joe

03-12-2003, 03:43 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Thanks Glen, great to get a new first hand report! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-12-2003, 04:06 PM	#9
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Trigger643 My thanks too. Your personal report reconfirms my itch to go to the Norton gallery, not only to see the .45 Luger but all the others as well. Regards Ken D

03-14-2003, 10:13 AM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Glen, 1. Thanks so much for your first hand report of the Norton .45 and your trip to the Gallery. I also appreciate you reporting that the Norton Gallery folks were a bit disappointed in not being contacted by the "Million Dollar Guns" documentarty folks... 2. On another matter; you mentioned a 1920 Erfurt with 18" bbl. in the Gallery. Can you tell us more about this luger. As a luger beginner, I was thought to believe Erfurts were made up to 1918 only with their LP-08's made in 1914 (and a few questionably in 1915 and 1917...). What is the history of a 1920 Erfurt ? Best Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-14-2003, 10:26 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pete, A quick guess would be that the 1920 Erfurt is Weimar property marked rather than date stamped, and rebarreled sometime after that. --Dwight

03-14-2003, 12:59 PM	#13
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The 1920 Erfurt is unmarked, ser#8727u. It is displayed with a commercial carbine stock, snail drum magazine and the associated loading tool. It has what appears to be standard type artillery sights, a swivel about halfway down the barrel (corresponding to the swivel on the stock). Other than the barrel length, it appears to be unremarkable. About 10 years ago in North Carolina I saw a nearly identically barreled and stocked Erfurt and was told they were assembled for the commercial market from left over and/or reconditioned military parts and new barrels in the mid-1920's. My readings are Erfurt stopped production in 1918. 1920 and 1921 marked Erfurts were stored production or reconditioned / reissued pieces for the Weirmar Republic. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown