Frankenluger (or maybe Mauserhoff?)

Shum8 · 01-01-2016, 11:48 PM

Greetings - just joined the other day - have stuck my nose under the tent occasionally in the past, but since I have now officially become a Luger owner, figured I'd better make myself legit.

Long story short, got two from my my Grandfather's collection, even though he died 35 years ago.... Anyway, up until a couple days ago, I thought I had a commercial American Eagle and a Krieghoff 1936. Now, I'm pretty sure I have a comm. American Eagle, but the Krieghoff appears to be a Mauser with a Krieghoff front toggle. Oh, well.

I need to post some pics so I can get some help verifying my assumptions, but I'm on an iPad so I have no easy way to resize the pics. I'll try one and if it's too large I'll crank up the laptop and shrink em a bit. Like I said, I'm pretty sure it's a Mauser marked "1936" over the chamber, all numbered parts match, but somewhere in its past someone swapped in a Krieghoff. toggle and brown Bakelite grip panels. That's my guess. Anyone able to confirm.

THANKS!!

Shum8 · 01-01-2016, 11:51 PM

I can post then one at a time..... If that's a problem, let me know and I'll shrink them down.

Shum8 · 01-01-2016, 11:54 PM

And it's obvious I didn't take the pics as recommended - but considering it's rained here for like the last week, it was the best I could do.

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 12:01 AM

And it seems the site's software automatically rotates pics to horizontal, so I will apologize now for sideways pics...

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 12:02 AM

I'll just post a couple more...

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 12:04 AM

One more again....

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 12:05 AM

And here's the shot that got my hopes up.....

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 12:10 AM

I've got more pics, but this oughta be enough to prove this one has been messed with...... If in the slim chance I can find an S/42 numbered 44 forward toggle, would that get it about back to where it should be??

Thanks

Robert

Edward Tinker · 01-02-2016, 12:14 AM

I think you're right, I need to look and see when Mauser had the mauser hump - I believe later.

Finding a #44 toggle was a lucky chance - need to see if Krieghoff 44 looks the same as Mauser?

If you could find a toggle that was S/42 and #44 it would be 'correct' - never really original. Although I would do the same thing...

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 12:38 AM

Thanks for the speedy reply. As for swapping the toggle - not trying to get it right for selling, due to from where I got it...... But it's gonna bug the crap outta me now that I know it's not right.

Lugerdoc · 01-02-2016, 10:23 AM

I have several nice S/42 marked mid toggle links, but no #44. Your may want to check the markings on your breech block; if E/2 that would also be KH and should be replaced with a Mauser. TH

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 10:46 AM

Copy that. It did occur to me that the whole toggle linkage may have been swapped....... Jerks. I think I have checkered walnut grips - may not the correct ones, but closer than the Bakelite.

mrerick · 01-02-2016, 11:09 AM

Those are likely type 1 (very early) plastic grips. They are rare and are very valuable. Think a few hundred dollars. They were used by Krieghoff and (in a very limited way) tested at Mauser.

The Mauser "hump" started in mid 1937.

Take a look inside the side plate and see if the number "62" or "63" is in there. If so, it's a matching Mauser plate. IIRC a few that year might not have numbers inside.

All the numbering dies that I can see (except for the toggle train) look like Mauser die stamps. The receiver proof and acceptance is, of course, Mauser as well - except the E/2 on the toggle.

The "R" on the tang of the middle toggle is interesting. I wonder if this somehow marked an armorer's replacement or some kind of "Revision control" work at an armory or higher level repair facility? It certainly looks to be in excellent condition, and some kind of facility work within the Luftwaffe could account for the toggle train and grips.

I personally would not change a thing about it. It is how your Grandfather kept it.

If you want an all matching gun, just purchase one instead of chasing the parts.

DonVoigt · 01-02-2016, 12:14 PM

I would not be un-happy to have a Mauser with HK grips and toggle.

You will never know how it got that way, and it will never be original anyway.

Think of it as an "un-common" shooter and enjoy it!

JMHO.

Norme · 01-02-2016, 03:39 PM

"The Mauser "hump" started in mid 1937."

Hi Marc, Actually the "Mauser Hump" first appeared in 1934 where it is found intermittently on K dates. It disappeared in 1935 with the G dates and did not return until, as you said, mid 1937, where it continued to be used through the end of production at Mauser.
Regards, Norm

Shum8 · 01-02-2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

.
Take a look inside the side plate and see if the number "62" or "63" is in there. If so, it's a matching Mauser plate. IIRC a few that year might not have numbers inside.

Just looked - this one is unmarked on the back side.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

The "R" on the tang of the middle toggle is interesting. I wonder if this somehow marked an armorer's replacement or some kind of "Revision control" work at an armory or higher level repair facility? It certainly looks to be in excellent condition, and some kind of facility work within the Luftwaffe could account for the toggle train and grips.

Truly, knowing the answer to that would be WAY more gratifying than finding "correct" parts........

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

I personally would not change a thing about it. It is how your Grandfather kept it.

Normally that's the direction I usually head. I think the whole reason I got to thinkin about swapping the toggle linkage I was the challenge of finding one...... I figure finding one in similar condition, marked as needed, AND affordable would be virtually impossible. Leave it as is I shall

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

If you want an all matching gun, just purchase one instead of chasing the parts.

I may have one - the American Eagle that came with this one I believe is...... But I haven't dug into it yet. (I also assumed the Other was a Krieghoff, so that'll teach me not assume LOL)

Thanks for the info - I normally shy away form Lugers and Colt SSA's due to how easily one can loose his shorts without the knowledge you folks have....... Talk about being outside my comfort zone LOL.

Rob

mrerick · 01-02-2016, 06:11 PM

Thanks Norm, I'd forgotten about those very early "K" dates having the added machining on the ears...

Rob, good choice... Let us have a look at your AE!

Marc

Sergio Natali · 01-03-2016, 08:43 AM

Robert

mrerick to me is right: if you want an all matching gun, just purchase one instead of chasing the parts.
Replacing a wrong part with a correct one perhaps can make that pistol "correct" but not "original". Originality once lost cannot be restored.
IMHO

01-01-2016, 11:48 PM	#1
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Frankenluger (or maybe Mauserhoff?) Greetings - just joined the other day - have stuck my nose under the tent occasionally in the past, but since I have now officially become a Luger owner, figured I'd better make myself legit. Long story short, got two from my my Grandfather's collection, even though he died 35 years ago.... Anyway, up until a couple days ago, I thought I had a commercial American Eagle and a Krieghoff 1936. Now, I'm pretty sure I have a comm. American Eagle, but the Krieghoff appears to be a Mauser with a Krieghoff front toggle. Oh, well. I need to post some pics so I can get some help verifying my assumptions, but I'm on an iPad so I have no easy way to resize the pics. I'll try one and if it's too large I'll crank up the laptop and shrink em a bit. Like I said, I'm pretty sure it's a Mauser marked "1936" over the chamber, all numbered parts match, but somewhere in its past someone swapped in a Krieghoff. toggle and brown Bakelite grip panels. That's my guess. Anyone able to confirm. THANKS!! Attached Thumbnails

01-01-2016, 11:51 PM	#2
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I can post then one at a time..... If that's a problem, let me know and I'll shrink them down. Attached Thumbnails

01-01-2016, 11:54 PM	#3
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	And it's obvious I didn't take the pics as recommended - but considering it's rained here for like the last week, it was the best I could do. Attached Images

01-02-2016, 12:02 AM	#5
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I'll just post a couple more... Attached Thumbnails

01-02-2016, 12:04 AM	#6
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	One more again.... Attached Images

01-02-2016, 12:01 AM	#4
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	And it seems the site's software automatically rotates pics to horizontal, so I will apologize now for sideways pics... Attached Thumbnails

01-02-2016, 12:05 AM	#7
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	And here's the shot that got my hopes up..... Attached Thumbnails

01-02-2016, 12:10 AM	#8
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I've got more pics, but this oughta be enough to prove this one has been messed with...... If in the slim chance I can find an S/42 numbered 44 forward toggle, would that get it about back to where it should be?? Thanks Robert

01-02-2016, 12:14 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,931 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	I think you're right, I need to look and see when Mauser had the mauser hump - I believe later. Finding a #44 toggle was a lucky chance - need to see if Krieghoff 44 looks the same as Mauser? If you could find a toggle that was S/42 and #44 it would be 'correct' - never really original. Although I would do the same thing... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-02-2016, 12:38 AM	#10
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the speedy reply. As for swapping the toggle - not trying to get it right for selling, due to from where I got it...... But it's gonna bug the crap outta me now that I know it's not right.

01-02-2016, 10:23 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I have several nice S/42 marked mid toggle links, but no #44. Your may want to check the markings on your breech block; if E/2 that would also be KH and should be replaced with a Mauser. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-02-2016, 10:46 AM	#12
Shum8 User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Copy that. It did occur to me that the whole toggle linkage may have been swapped....... Jerks. I think I have checkered walnut grips - may not the correct ones, but closer than the Bakelite.

01-02-2016, 11:09 AM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Those are likely type 1 (very early) plastic grips. They are rare and are very valuable. Think a few hundred dollars. They were used by Krieghoff and (in a very limited way) tested at Mauser. The Mauser "hump" started in mid 1937. Take a look inside the side plate and see if the number "62" or "63" is in there. If so, it's a matching Mauser plate. IIRC a few that year might not have numbers inside. All the numbering dies that I can see (except for the toggle train) look like Mauser die stamps. The receiver proof and acceptance is, of course, Mauser as well - except the E/2 on the toggle. The "R" on the tang of the middle toggle is interesting. I wonder if this somehow marked an armorer's replacement or some kind of "Revision control" work at an armory or higher level repair facility? It certainly looks to be in excellent condition, and some kind of facility work within the Luftwaffe could account for the toggle train and grips. I personally would not change a thing about it. It is how your Grandfather kept it. If you want an all matching gun, just purchase one instead of chasing the parts. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-02-2016, 12:14 PM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I would not be un-happy to have a Mauser with HK grips and toggle. You will never know how it got that way, and it will never be original anyway. Think of it as an "un-common" shooter and enjoy it! JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-02-2016, 03:39 PM	#15
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	"The Mauser "hump" started in mid 1937." Hi Marc, Actually the "Mauser Hump" first appeared in 1934 where it is found intermittently on K dates. It disappeared in 1935 with the G dates and did not return until, as you said, mid 1937, where it continued to be used through the end of production at Mauser. Regards, Norm

01-02-2016, 06:11 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Thanks Norm, I'd forgotten about those very early "K" dates having the added machining on the ears... Rob, good choice... Let us have a look at your AE! Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-03-2016, 08:43 AM	#18
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Robert mrerick to me is right: if you want an all matching gun, just purchase one instead of chasing the parts. Replacing a wrong part with a correct one perhaps can make that pistol "correct" but not "original". Originality once lost cannot be restored. IMHO __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.