Interesting story in 1945 - Page 2

John Sabato · 06-24-2002, 03:53 PM

Wes,

You should also take into account that direct translation from one language into another is not a science... and in many cases it is quite impossible to convey the same intended meaning in the language of the translation...

I know this because I have lived 8 of my many years outside of the U.S. and have a conversational working knowledge of two other languages...

If I had to translate the title of the article without benefit of a dictionary, I would have said that it stated (in general): "A pistol carbine in .45 caliber with an unknown (or doubtful) origin" (and that is no bull, just the facrs as they are known today)

Klaus' translation of the title is about as accurate as can be stated in English (I meant American... sorry Tacfoley, and our other UK members!) [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, we can argue about the pro's & con's, but the reality of the situation is without documented provenance on the origin of the .45 caliber carbine in Ralph's possession, we may never know the real story...

The fact that it has remained unknown in collecting circles up until now makes it curious...not a fraud. I will wait for the evidence. If it never comes, we still have to recognize that it is the ONLY .45 claiber carbine KNOWN to exist. Unless it is proven by either metallurgy or other scientific or forensic testing to be of modern manufacture, I will have to give the weapon the benefit of the doubt. I doubt seriously that anyone is going to purchase this gun at the price of $1,000,000.00 (USD) until it's authenticity is proven beyond a doubt anyway... the only persons who would risk that kind of money would be backed by terms and condition of the sale should the gun be proven to be of modern manufacture at some future date, or someone who personally KNOWS it to be authentic.

just my pound of flesh on the matter... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Mike Jones · 06-24-2002, 08:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still:
<strong>Klaus, Kornmayer, Jones, Shattuck,
Kornmayer reports .45 caliber Luger serial numbers 2, 4, 14, and 17. Jones pointed out how the same Luger can be mistakenly reported twice. How many of these .45 caliber Lugers have been verified by a second reliable source? Perhaps new production .45 Lugers are being confused with the originals. Which ones were reported well prior to the time of new production in the United states.

What are the details of Shattuck report in this
fourm that Jones and Alberman had an altercation in 1945 over a "fake"(?) 45 luger?
Jan C. Still</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jan,

Here's what I know on the known and claimed .45 Lugers.

Un-numbered = Norton Gun

#2 = Aberman Gun

#4 = Albert at Imperial Arms seems to know something on this gun. I would like to know when it surfaced & location of sn#'s

#5 = Pictured in Luger of the month in
G&A by Michael Reese Feb. 1974. Is the Norton Gun.

#14 = Pictured in Walters 1977 book is also the Norton Gun.

17 = Same questions as sn #4

Also have several other claims of guns found, but have always turned out to be one or the other of the two known guns.

With all the information,documents,letters and photos I have at my disposal on these guns.At this point in time, I think (educated guess) that the "Luger World" should look at any .45 cal Luger (of this 5" variation - don't want to ruffle any feathers) with great suspicion other than the 2 guns that have been known for 40+ years. As I have never seen anything, with what information I have or obsereved from others, that indiacate any others exist.

As for what took place in 1945, I, along with you and seems others, Are waiting to hear from Ralph Shattuck on this matter.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Edward Tinker · 06-24-2002, 08:55 PM

Mike, do you have any idea (or guess) why Reese or Walters would call it a different serial number, although it has no serial number? Is the Norton gun marked at all?

Ed

Jerry Harris · 06-24-2002, 09:00 PM

Mike,
I (like Ed) can't shake that Twilight Zone feeling in this thread. How can the "Norton gun" have no serial number, serial number 5, and serial number 14? I have a queasy feeling that the answer's supposed to be obvious, but go ahead, hit us with it. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 06-24-2002, 09:49 PM

The Norton Gallery .45 Luger is also reported in Edward Scott Meadows "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1894 - 1920" as being serial number 3, but as I had observed from a rather limited view and Michael confirmed, only the magazine is numbered 3.
If indeed other original .45 Lugers exist, someone should know where they reside if they have indeed been seen and reported in the past.

Ron Wood · 06-25-2002, 01:47 AM

It is not hard to imagine multiple numbers being attributed to the same gun. There are numerous examples of early documenters of Luger data publishing information that they had received from trusted sources but had not verified first hand. They were trying to record what they believed to be correct, but as time passed and additional information became available this early data has been found to be in error.

John Sabato · 06-25-2002, 12:02 PM

[quote] If indeed other original .45 Lugers exist, someone should know where they reside if they have indeed been seen and reported in the past. <hr></blockquote>

But Johnny, while what you said is true, it does not account for any possibly existing original .45 caliber Lugers that have NOT been publicly seen or previously reported. My gut instincts, without any additional evidence is that this is what we are dealing with here...

I ponder the recent discovery of the .45 caliber carbine and I have to wonder... if it is proven to be of the correct vintage, and it is serial number 21... How many more may exist? That is a lot of if's... How can we or any other authority prove beyond a shadow of a doubt whether or not this gun was produced in the early part of the last century?... We need some scientific input from knowledgeable sources to answer this question. I don't know the answers, but I certainly have plenty of questions... [img]confused.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 06-25-2002, 12:40 PM

John,
The discussion centered around .45 Lugers that had been previously reported, but cannot now be confirmed. Those that have not been found will have to be another story as they are found.
If we were not curious about a newly found and seemingly pristine example of a .45 Luger we would all probably be collecting Avon bottles.

John Sabato · 06-25-2002, 03:50 PM

There is certainly nothing wrong with a healthy curiosity... despite what happend to the cat! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 06-25-2002, 06:14 PM

And while on the subject of cats, we must also remember that the Leopard cannot change it's spots.

------------
"That which is striking and beautiful is not always good, but that which is good is always beautiful."
Ninon Del 'Enclos

Edward Tinker · 06-25-2002, 06:45 PM

Well, considering how many LugerÃ¢??s ended up on the ocean floor, by scared GIÃ¢??s that thought theyÃ¢??d get into trouble, or the Brits that were told to dump Ã¢??em, it is very possible that some prototypes or early examples just rusted away in a few days...

<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

06-24-2002, 03:53 PM	#21
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Wes, You should also take into account that direct translation from one language into another is not a science... and in many cases it is quite impossible to convey the same intended meaning in the language of the translation... I know this because I have lived 8 of my many years outside of the U.S. and have a conversational working knowledge of two other languages... If I had to translate the title of the article without benefit of a dictionary, I would have said that it stated (in general): "A pistol carbine in .45 caliber with an unknown (or doubtful) origin" (and that is no bull, just the facrs as they are known today) Klaus' translation of the title is about as accurate as can be stated in English (I meant American... sorry Tacfoley, and our other UK members!) [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Seriously, we can argue about the pro's & con's, but the reality of the situation is without documented provenance on the origin of the .45 caliber carbine in Ralph's possession, we may never know the real story... The fact that it has remained unknown in collecting circles up until now makes it curious...not a fraud. I will wait for the evidence. If it never comes, we still have to recognize that it is the ONLY .45 claiber carbine KNOWN to exist. Unless it is proven by either metallurgy or other scientific or forensic testing to be of modern manufacture, I will have to give the weapon the benefit of the doubt. I doubt seriously that anyone is going to purchase this gun at the price of $1,000,000.00 (USD) until it's authenticity is proven beyond a doubt anyway... the only persons who would risk that kind of money would be backed by terms and condition of the sale should the gun be proven to be of modern manufacture at some future date, or someone who personally KNOWS it to be authentic. just my pound of flesh on the matter... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-24-2002, 08:55 PM	#23
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Mike, do you have any idea (or guess) why Reese or Walters would call it a different serial number, although it has no serial number? Is the Norton gun marked at all? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-25-2002, 01:47 AM	#26
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	It is not hard to imagine multiple numbers being attributed to the same gun. There are numerous examples of early documenters of Luger data publishing information that they had received from trusted sources but had not verified first hand. They were trying to record what they believed to be correct, but as time passed and additional information became available this early data has been found to be in error. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-25-2002, 12:02 PM	#27
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	[quote] If indeed other original .45 Lugers exist, someone should know where they reside if they have indeed been seen and reported in the past. <hr></blockquote> But Johnny, while what you said is true, it does not account for any possibly existing original .45 caliber Lugers that have NOT been publicly seen or previously reported. My gut instincts, without any additional evidence is that this is what we are dealing with here... I ponder the recent discovery of the .45 caliber carbine and I have to wonder... if it is proven to be of the correct vintage, and it is serial number 21... How many more may exist? That is a lot of if's... How can we or any other authority prove beyond a shadow of a doubt whether or not this gun was produced in the early part of the last century?... We need some scientific input from knowledgeable sources to answer this question. I don't know the answers, but I certainly have plenty of questions... [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-25-2002, 03:50 PM	#29
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	There is certainly nothing wrong with a healthy curiosity... despite what happend to the cat! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-24-2002, 08:14 PM	#22
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still: <strong>Klaus, Kornmayer, Jones, Shattuck, Kornmayer reports .45 caliber Luger serial numbers 2, 4, 14, and 17. Jones pointed out how the same Luger can be mistakenly reported twice. How many of these .45 caliber Lugers have been verified by a second reliable source? Perhaps new production .45 Lugers are being confused with the originals. Which ones were reported well prior to the time of new production in the United states. What are the details of Shattuck report in this fourm that Jones and Alberman had an altercation in 1945 over a "fake"(?) 45 luger? Jan C. Still</strong><hr></blockquote> Jan, Here's what I know on the known and claimed .45 Lugers. Un-numbered = Norton Gun #2 = Aberman Gun #4 = Albert at Imperial Arms seems to know something on this gun. I would like to know when it surfaced & location of sn#'s #5 = Pictured in Luger of the month in G&A by Michael Reese Feb. 1974. Is the Norton Gun. #14 = Pictured in Walters 1977 book is also the Norton Gun. 17 = Same questions as sn #4 Also have several other claims of guns found, but have always turned out to be one or the other of the two known guns. With all the information,documents,letters and photos I have at my disposal on these guns.At this point in time, I think (educated guess) that the "Luger World" should look at any .45 cal Luger (of this 5" variation - don't want to ruffle any feathers) with great suspicion other than the 2 guns that have been known for 40+ years. As I have never seen anything, with what information I have or obsereved from others, that indiacate any others exist. As for what took place in 1945, I, along with you and seems others, Are waiting to hear from Ralph Shattuck on this matter. Hope this helps, Mike

06-24-2002, 09:00 PM	#24
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mike, I (like Ed) can't shake that Twilight Zone feeling in this thread. How can the "Norton gun" have no serial number, serial number 5, and serial number 14? I have a queasy feeling that the answer's supposed to be obvious, but go ahead, hit us with it. [img]eek.gif[/img]

06-24-2002, 09:49 PM	#25
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The Norton Gallery .45 Luger is also reported in Edward Scott Meadows "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1894 - 1920" as being serial number 3, but as I had observed from a rather limited view and Michael confirmed, only the magazine is numbered 3. If indeed other original .45 Lugers exist, someone should know where they reside if they have indeed been seen and reported in the past.

06-25-2002, 12:40 PM	#28
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, The discussion centered around .45 Lugers that had been previously reported, but cannot now be confirmed. Those that have not been found will have to be another story as they are found. If we were not curious about a newly found and seemingly pristine example of a .45 Luger we would all probably be collecting Avon bottles.

06-25-2002, 06:14 PM	#30
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	And while on the subject of cats, we must also remember that the Leopard cannot change it's spots. ------------ "That which is striking and beautiful is not always good, but that which is good is always beautiful." Ninon Del 'Enclos

06-25-2002, 06:45 PM	#31
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Well, considering how many LugerÃ¢??s ended up on the ocean floor, by scared GIÃ¢??s that thought theyÃ¢??d get into trouble, or the Brits that were told to dump Ã¢??em, it is very possible that some prototypes or early examples just rusted away in a few days... <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV