Sear Safety question and classification?

Jasta2 · 12-02-2009, 08:47 PM

My only Luger book ( so far) is 'Lugers at Random'. It has a paragraph on sear safety operation, but does not mention, outside of on some military and police, what pistols it was used on. Was this more of a 'add-on' during a rework, or were some models such as the "1934 Mauser German Contract"( Kenyon's term page 282) Banner made with the Sear Safety factory installed when new as stated for Police use? In a review of this book, I did not notice any other Luger pictured with a sear safety. I take not to many Lugers had these. I am not a big fan of the way it looks, but it does give it a unique look to it.
Oh, as an aside, what I do find confusing, is about how Lugers are classified. Like this listing as a '1934 Mauser German Contract' when when these Lugers are only found dated 1939-1942. I take the '1934' is when Mauser started making 'new' Lugers for the military that the classification was made?
Thanks, Bill

FNorm · 12-02-2009, 09:38 PM

Hi Chief,

Some of Kenyon's terminology can be confusing, as it is not now in general usage. But you can think of a 1934 model as Mauser made. The 'Old Guys' will corrrect me if I'm wrong.

The sear safety was strictly a police item. Can't find the reference right now, but I think it was a directive from a Prussian Agency. So some early lugers were retroed. Then it became standard for all police lugers. Except some of the 41 and 42 Banners were drilled for it, but not installed. I guess the cops kept shooting themselves in the foot. It could be on any model/year that was going to the police. Most often seen on the Mauser Banner Police. All of which are listed under 'commercial'. They may have been installed after the factory???

AH! Found some of it. See New Collectors, FAQ #29

FN

Jasta2 · 12-02-2009, 10:32 PM

Thanks FN!
Funny, I never took the time to review the FAQ section of the Forum. It was a wealth of information for us still learning the world of details about the Luger. I will spend alot more time reviewing it.
Thanks to Ed for posting the info.
Bill

Karl · 12-03-2009, 06:44 PM

Re: "I guess the cops kept shooting themselves in the foot." The sear safety prevented firing a loaded "upper" - barrel/receiver assembly when detached from the "lower" - frame assembly. Why this was a problem I don't know. Can't imagine anyone field stripping a loaded automatic pistol. Perhaps one of the experts has an answer. KFS

Norme · 12-03-2009, 07:23 PM

"I guess the cops kept shooting themselves in the foot"
I was actually present once when this happened! About 40 yrs. ago, I was shopping in a large sporting goods store in northern NJ, that specialized in equipping local police forces. A cop, trying out a new holster, had an accidental discharge. The situation was very tense for a while, as the sales staff, all of whom were armed, thought that there was a robbery in progress.
There is a moral there, somewhere!

alanint · 12-04-2009, 09:39 AM

Hey Norm,

Out of curiosity, I remember a similar incident in that area at around that time. What Sporting goods store was it?

Norme · 12-04-2009, 10:11 AM

Hi Alan, I don't remember the stores name, but it was on Route 22 if that helps. I was shopping for reloading supplies when the AD occurred in the Police Equipment department. Regards, Norm

jamese · 12-06-2009, 11:30 AM

I think they have the same problem back in the 30's as they still do today.........just because your a cop, doesn't mean you know much about firearms !

After 31 years on the job, and still in charge of the armory......I could tell you stories that would scare the heck out of ya. I would estimate that only about 20% of the cops on any given police force, I would consider firearm competent. I have seen guys put shotgun shells into the mag tube back wards and wonder why the gun jams !

Sure most cops know the mechanics of how to fire their issued weapons, but they really have no clue as to the a firearm actually works and have no interest in learning.

Having an accidental discharge out in the field of is one thing, but having firearms going off inside a building, full of civilian clerks and dispatchers etc......is another. My guess is that most of the accidental discharges occurred when the cops were cleaning thier Lugers inside a police building....so after an extensive study and investigation, they concluded in order to reduce injuries and accidental discharges the safety was added.

I'm sure additional training would have cost too much!

Jim

sheepherder · 12-06-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamese

My guess is that most of the accidental discharges occurred when the cops were cleaning thier Lugers inside a police building...

I can understand this...I was a member of the USAFR back in the 90's, when the USAFR moved from S&W revolvers to M9 autos...The civilian DOD Police force also switched at the same time...They carried locked & loaded, but at some point someone forgot about the one in the chamber...While preparing to clean, a gateguard removed the mag and pulled the trigger...and made a hole in the parquet floor...

FNorm · 12-06-2009, 11:54 AM

JIm? Only 20% competent? Amazing! I guess the doughnuts get in the way...

FN

jamese · 12-08-2009, 06:58 AM

The 20% is only a guess based on the numbers within my agency, but I think its about the same throughout the country. I think these numbers will go a little up as veterans get hired.

By the way I don't eat donuts!

Jim

Dick Herman · 09-10-2015, 11:04 PM

I know this response is late. However I was just surfing looking for police sear safety information, still looking.

I used to shoot at the indoor ranges in Ray's Sporting Goods on Route 22 in Somerville New Jersey. It used to be a great place to go to for everything related to guns. I recall that there was a policeman discharging his pistol in their store. Stuff happens.

alanint · 09-11-2015, 08:10 AM

Amen! Over the years, I've been present for three accidental discharges at South Florida Gun shows!!

kurusu · 09-11-2015, 09:02 AM

The fact that there are accidental discharges with the Luger proves that no gun is idiot proof.

First, the Luger (at least from 1906 onward) has a very visible and tactile loaded chamber indicator. How someone can even think of trying to disassemble one without clearing the chamber is beyond me.

Second, it has a very effective safety that blocks the sear bar.

Third, in as issue condition it has a really heavy trigger with a long pull.

Fourth, although only valid for those with grip safety. The safety automatically engages whenever the pistol is not firmly gripped blocking the sear bar movement.

Dwight Gruber · 09-11-2015, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl

Re: "I guess the cops kept shooting themselves in the foot." The sear safety prevented firing a loaded "upper" - barrel/receiver assembly when detached from the "lower" - frame assembly. Why this was a problem I don't know. Can't imagine anyone field stripping a loaded automatic pistol. Perhaps one of the experts has an answer. KFS

Abstraction.
Carelessness.
Laziness.
Negligence.
Ignorance.
Stupidity.

In ascending order. And you know it happens. It apparently happened enough with P08s that it became a problem to be solved.

Ironically, August Weiss speculated that this was more of a problem with the army than with the police ("The Mauser Parabellum").

--Dwight

12-02-2009, 08:47 PM	#1
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Sear Safety question and classification? My only Luger book ( so far) is 'Lugers at Random'. It has a paragraph on sear safety operation, but does not mention, outside of on some military and police, what pistols it was used on. Was this more of a 'add-on' during a rework, or were some models such as the "1934 Mauser German Contract"( Kenyon's term page 282) Banner made with the Sear Safety factory installed when new as stated for Police use? In a review of this book, I did not notice any other Luger pictured with a sear safety. I take not to many Lugers had these. I am not a big fan of the way it looks, but it does give it a unique look to it. Oh, as an aside, what I do find confusing, is about how Lugers are classified. Like this listing as a '1934 Mauser German Contract' when when these Lugers are only found dated 1939-1942. I take the '1934' is when Mauser started making 'new' Lugers for the military that the classification was made? Thanks, Bill

12-06-2009, 11:30 AM	#8
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	I think they have the same problem back in the 30's as they still do today.........just because your a cop, doesn't mean you know much about firearms ! After 31 years on the job, and still in charge of the armory......I could tell you stories that would scare the heck out of ya. I would estimate that only about 20% of the cops on any given police force, I would consider firearm competent. I have seen guys put shotgun shells into the mag tube back wards and wonder why the gun jams ! Sure most cops know the mechanics of how to fire their issued weapons, but they really have no clue as to the a firearm actually works and have no interest in learning. Having an accidental discharge out in the field of is one thing, but having firearms going off inside a building, full of civilian clerks and dispatchers etc......is another. My guess is that most of the accidental discharges occurred when the cops were cleaning thier Lugers inside a police building....so after an extensive study and investigation, they concluded in order to reduce injuries and accidental discharges the safety was added. I'm sure additional training would have cost too much! Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

12-08-2009, 06:58 AM	#11
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	The 20% is only a guess based on the numbers within my agency, but I think its about the same throughout the country. I think these numbers will go a little up as veterans get hired. By the way I don't eat donuts! Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

09-11-2015, 09:02 AM	#14
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	The fact that there are accidental discharges with the Luger proves that no gun is idiot proof. First, the Luger (at least from 1906 onward) has a very visible and tactile loaded chamber indicator. How someone can even think of trying to disassemble one without clearing the chamber is beyond me. Second, it has a very effective safety that blocks the sear bar. Third, in as issue condition it has a really heavy trigger with a long pull. Fourth, although only valid for those with grip safety. The safety automatically engages whenever the pistol is not firmly gripped blocking the sear bar movement. Last edited by kurusu; 09-11-2015 at 11:28 AM.

12-02-2009, 09:38 PM	#2
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Hi Chief, Some of Kenyon's terminology can be confusing, as it is not now in general usage. But you can think of a 1934 model as Mauser made. The 'Old Guys' will corrrect me if I'm wrong. The sear safety was strictly a police item. Can't find the reference right now, but I think it was a directive from a Prussian Agency. So some early lugers were retroed. Then it became standard for all police lugers. Except some of the 41 and 42 Banners were drilled for it, but not installed. I guess the cops kept shooting themselves in the foot. It could be on any model/year that was going to the police. Most often seen on the Mauser Banner Police. All of which are listed under 'commercial'. They may have been installed after the factory??? AH! Found some of it. See New Collectors, FAQ #29 FN Last edited by FNorm; 12-02-2009 at 09:46 PM. Reason: add

12-02-2009, 10:32 PM	#3
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Thanks FN! Funny, I never took the time to review the FAQ section of the Forum. It was a wealth of information for us still learning the world of details about the Luger. I will spend alot more time reviewing it. Thanks to Ed for posting the info. Bill

12-03-2009, 06:44 PM	#4
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 262 Times in 115 Posts	Re: "I guess the cops kept shooting themselves in the foot." The sear safety prevented firing a loaded "upper" - barrel/receiver assembly when detached from the "lower" - frame assembly. Why this was a problem I don't know. Can't imagine anyone field stripping a loaded automatic pistol. Perhaps one of the experts has an answer. KFS

12-03-2009, 07:23 PM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	"I guess the cops kept shooting themselves in the foot" I was actually present once when this happened! About 40 yrs. ago, I was shopping in a large sporting goods store in northern NJ, that specialized in equipping local police forces. A cop, trying out a new holster, had an accidental discharge. The situation was very tense for a while, as the sales staff, all of whom were armed, thought that there was a robbery in progress. There is a moral there, somewhere!

12-04-2009, 09:39 AM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Hey Norm, Out of curiosity, I remember a similar incident in that area at around that time. What Sporting goods store was it?

12-04-2009, 10:11 AM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Alan, I don't remember the stores name, but it was on Route 22 if that helps. I was shopping for reloading supplies when the AD occurred in the Police Equipment department. Regards, Norm

12-06-2009, 11:54 AM	#10
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	JIm? Only 20% competent? Amazing! I guess the doughnuts get in the way... FN

09-10-2015, 11:04 PM	#12
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	I know this response is late. However I was just surfing looking for police sear safety information, still looking. I used to shoot at the indoor ranges in Ray's Sporting Goods on Route 22 in Somerville New Jersey. It used to be a great place to go to for everything related to guns. I recall that there was a policeman discharging his pistol in their store. Stuff happens.

09-11-2015, 08:10 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Amen! Over the years, I've been present for three accidental discharges at South Florida Gun shows!!