Interesting Navy -thoughts?

[siegersallee]

Hi all,

I saw this and thought others may want to take a look as well. Not being very knowledgeable about navies, I am anxious to see what other think of this: 1908 DWM Navy.

Enjoy,
Richard

[drbuster]

It's always nice to peruse the photo quality and all the while get a history lesson from PIA! The gun looks righteous to my eye and follows the description of a 1908 Navy as on page 123 and photos (Figs 51), in Jan Stills' Central Powers Pistols. I am a little surprised at the conservative pricing of this relatively scarce Navy. Do you have any specific concerns, Richard?

[siegersallee]

I am trying to spark discussion as to the merits of the pistol.

My concern is the reputation of the dealer.

[drbuster]

Granted that the reputation of PIA is less than stellar, it is incumbent upon the prospective buyer to examine each offering on its own merits. Unless one lives close by in North Carolina in order to check out the pistol personally, then one must use the three day inspection rule. PIA honors that to the best of my knowledge. Given all the concerns, I still feel, at least from the quality photos, that this Navy is correct.

[Norme]

Hi Richard, I see a fake matching number magazine, what I don't see are halos on the barrel serial numbers. Also not shown is the mutillated Navy property number, which the seller pictured when he first listed this gun.
Regards, Norm

[siegersallee]

Hi Norme,
I also noted that the halos were missing and from that concluded that RIA had "enhanced" the pistol.
Thanks for the thoughts about the magazine. I totally missed that.

drbuster,
I was suspicious of this Navy as soon as it debuted. I was quite surprised by your assessment of the "gun looks righteous". The caveat about this, or any, seller goes without saying.

As I said, I posted this thread to solicit opinions, critiques, and other insights from the community. While I personally believe this Navy has been doctored and therefore the price is unsupportable, I do appreciate and expect others may not agree with me.

Richard

[DonVoigt]

Sigersallee,
You wrote:
"I also noted that the halos were missing and from that concluded that RIA had "enhanced" the pistol."

I would only add that I would be careful in attributing the "improvement" to either this or any other seller- we have no way to know "who done it". Could have been done any time in the last 100+ years.

Saying it has been re-finished or partially refinished is enough(IMO); or better yet that "in one's opinion ....(add in any comment)".

You qualified the statement to "I personally believe", in the post above, which is good.

I read the ad twice, and don't see or maybe missed any claim that it has "original" finish. I read only marketing fluff interspersed with general facts and soft assumptions- like maybe not issued or well taken care of, which mean nothing.

I have no idea who PIA is, and don't care; they are on the other side of the state from me or I would drop by and look at their stuff in person.

I have seen this kind of comment about dealers and collectors before and it comes close to slander if said and libel when written, again JMHO; that is of course unless it is True. But then,
one would have to have "proof" of who did the enhancement.

drbuster said it well, basically decide for yourself and use the 3 day inspection to examine and return if need be.

JMHO.

[drbuster]

Richard, although your and Norme's takes are no doubt totally correct, I personally have trouble seeing halos in some photos, especially when the serial numbers have been highlighted. Again, with the reputation of PIA, a serious buyer needs to remove the highlight and take a close examination. With that said, I'm not certain why Norme's felt the mag was faked. The fonts of the numbers are borderline and old numbers are usually more difficult to remove from wooden mag bottoms than aluminum bottoms. Here again, one needs closer in person scrutiny. Could Norme enlighten me where this pistol was sold previously? The unit mark shown in the PIA photo was poor and not a real closeup view. And with all that said, I would tend to agree with Don Voigt's view above.

[DavidJayUden]

Why not contact the seller and voice your concerns? Might be a place to start.
dju

[siegersallee]

The seller states:
"The finish shows honest wear and would be rated excellent for an Imperial Navy."

This in my opinion implies the pistol's finish is original; though, you are correct that he does not explicitly say that.

Additionally, the seller states: "This is a collector grade gun."
To my mind, as a serious collector, I would not be interested in a gun which I believed to have been "enhanced".
A collector grade gun implies, to me, originality.

And the seller further states: "The magazine is matching with the Marinen Crown Proof & the matching serial number."
One collector here, with the experience and knowledge to judge these things, has expressed serious reservations about the originality of the mag.
Admittedly, the seller does not say the mag is original but I think to a reasonable mind this is implied.


I have absolutely no interest in purchasing this Navy or in contacting the dealer. I also have no ax to grind either.

My purpose in posting this Navy at all is stated clearly in my first post:
"Not being very knowledgeable about navies, I am anxious to see what other think of this."

I further elaborate upon it in a later post:
"I posted this thread to solicit opinions, critiques, and other insights from the community."

Many people read posts very quickly and often, as a result, read into a post.

[Norme]

Originally Posted by drbuster

Richard, although your and Norme's takes are no doubt totally correct, I personally have trouble seeing halos in some photos, especially when the serial numbers have been highlighted. Again, with the reputation of PIA, a serious buyer needs to remove the highlight and take a close examination. With that said, I'm not certain why Norme's felt the mag was faked. The fonts of the numbers are borderline and old numbers are usually more difficult to remove from wooden mag bottoms than aluminum bottoms. Here again, one needs closer in person scrutiny. Could Norme enlighten me where this pistol was sold previously? The unit mark shown in the PIA photo was poor and not a real closeup view. And with all that said, I would tend to agree with Don Voigt's view above.

Hi Herb, 1908 Navy #4876b was sold by Rock Island Auction in Sep 2008. They posted a good clear photo of the unit mark at the time, the numbers had been filed or ground off.
Regards, Norm

[drbuster]

Thanks Norm. It's great you keep records of past auctions....really helps to color ones thoughts. I sure would like to use a fine lens and careful touching with a finger on the rear grip strap! In any event this luger would never be on my buy list.

[m1903a3]

Read all the language on the PIA SITE VERY CAREFULLY. Note the part about restocking charges on returns.

[DonVoigt]

I have no dog in this fight, but all the implied or non- explicit or reasonable expectations aside;
the word "original" is not used in the long write up even once.

That in itself would be enough to alert me to be careful.

All all the "fluff" in the description is pretty meaningless and distracting.
I would be extremely skeptical when someone has to fluff the story and not let the piece stand on its own.

[Ben M.]

fluff good for bed and pillow

[drbuster]

The lesson learned here in my humble opinion is that anyone interested in acquiring a Navy luger, especially Third Reich variations, has to face the fact that they are expensive, are frequent targets for fakers and boosters and must not rely on photos alone for purchasing, not withstanding the 3 day inspection rule. There is often controversy when the 3 day period begins. Most importantly one must trust the seller! Of course, it goes without saying that every piece of literature you can find should be read ahead of time.

[cirelaw]

For the past 7 years I have purchased all my luger from a well known member and mentor. Our members are growing older and are in a better situation to pass on their luger booty. No commisions or hidden costs. And a reasonable time to inspect your purchase. I have relied on my hero, George Anderson who I know has a fine collection of fine guns to sell! You can ask for a current list~ Happy Happy! Eric

[siegersallee]

All all the "fluff" in the description is pretty meaningless and distracting.
I would be extremely skeptical when someone has to fluff the story and not let the piece stand on its own.

Absolutely agree!